What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[The Grand Nudger]

Is like a revolving door of catholic asshattery all of a sudden, these past few days.  Yall splitting shifts?

[Randy Carson]

We believe so because it is *the* act that brings new life into the word. And we believe life is sacred.

Note: (since I know it will come up) I am in no way saying that the only purpose for sex is procreation.

But you very directly contradict yourself with those two statements, along with the foundational views which you continue to back (ie. contraception, homosexuality)... how do you not see this?

There is no contradiction. Sex is both procreative and unitive.

God gives life when the couple engages in sex that is procreative. And God binds the husband and wife together when they become one flesh through the sacrament of marriage. A cord of three strands is not easily broken.

[Longhorn]

I've never gotten an honest answer so far and I've asked almost all theists

CL, how does anyone know anything about god?

I know you directed this to CL, but I would like to answer, also.

Several ways:

1. The material world around us speaks of an intelligent designer.
2. Logic and reason about how all this came into being.
3. Revelation of God making things known to us that we could not know otherwise.

Nope. Nuh uh Randy.

Those are your arguments for god's existence. I'm not asking about belief, I'm asking about knowledge. You don't need arguments for a fact.

The answer is: you don't know. You believe. And so does everybody else, including the authors of the bible.

That's why the god claim isn't worth anything. It's just making shit up.

[abaris]

Through our sexuality, God allows us to participate in His creation of new life.

It may come as a surprise, but we're not the only species having sex.

[Randy Carson]

Was it moral, then, to kill a person for pulling out of his brothers wife?  Was a story about a god killing a man for pulling out of his brothers wife moral, then?  Has god ever, literally or allegorically, done anything "bad"?  I can claim it, I will continue to claim it, I will continue to demonstrate it, and you -have- been contradicting yourself.

No, nothing that God has EVER done has been "bad".

If you feel otherwise, then it is your understanding and not God's action that is wrong.

[Randy Carson]

Onan spilled his seed because he did not want to give his child to his dead brother Er.  God was displeased and killed Onan.  Now, we know for certain that avoiding his duty to give a child to his brother was displeasing to god, because it was a violation of the law.  How do you get from there to declaring the method by which he broke the law to be bad under all circumstances.  If that were the case, you'd expect there to be a law in Deuteronomy prohibiting birth control. 

One might argue that God was simply angry with Onan for failing to honor a commandment to produce a child with his dead brother’s wife. But if you look at Deuteronomy 25:9-10, it is clear that the penalty for this failure is public humiliation, not death (the widow “shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot, and spit in his face; . . . And the name of his house shall be called in Israel, the house of him that had his sandal pulled off”).

But that's not what happened. Onan’s actions evoked a much more serious response from God, and early Jewish and Christian commentators believed that by spilling his semen Onan had violated God’s natural law, the design he built into the human race, which led them to condemn the practice of birth control as being against God’s law.

[Randy Carson]

LOL! I wrote "yall's" at first and then changed because "you all's" looked just a tad more classy and less country.

Y'all is singular.
All y'all is plural.

[The Grand Nudger]

Oh I know, I know.....Randy, it's my poor understanding of god that leads me to be confused regarding whether or not it's kosher to off some guy because he didn't want to seal the deal with his brothers wife.  The answer is so plainly obvious... that god is good -especially- when he's smiting the shit out of folks like Onan.  You know what though....you don't actually need to tell me any of this..I have the same understanding of the story as you do. It's your Girl, Catholic.....who you need to correct on this count.

What do you expect, btw>?  God didn't write any of his morality on my heart, as I'm not a descendant of Adam....like I keep telling you.

[Randy Carson]

Rest assured, I do not mean to control anyone. People can do as they please. I have certain moral beliefs, and I try to follow them. This is a personal decision, but people can do what they want. :

Not the way your church looks at it, unfortunately. Of course *you* don't want to control people. The church does, and it has interest in it.

[Randy Carson]

But you said that morality was one of them, in so many words. The entire point that Rhythm was responding to was your idea that things in Onan's time made it and okay idea for him to be put to death and for the people of that time to write about it. You have a remarkable ability to distance yourself from the things you literally just said.

Also, why is it that you chose not to respond to the second part of my post?

I'm sorry but I believe you misunderstood me.

The "being ok to be put to death for it" was never true. It is not ok to be put to death for this or any reason. I have said this. Writing a story where someone get's put to death though, is not immoral.

What was the second part? I'm sorry. There are a lot of posts and I can't get to all of them sometimes. Especially if they are very long posts that require a long answer.

Onan was killed because he disobeyed God.

This was capital punishment - plain and simple. God was forming a people, and they were stubborn and rebellious. God dealt with them at their level while moving them in a different direction. Is this a problem?

It happened in the NT, too.

Acts 5:1-11
5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

+++

He's God. We're not. Some people have a harder time with that than others.