Will Humans Have Freewill in Heaven?

[Rhondazvous]

Do people have the capacity to sin in heaven?

No, and the simple explanation to this, Chad and I both have given, all choices in heaven will be choosing one good thing or another good thing, there will be no evil choices, God's ultimate will for heaven will be absolute perfection, without any faults.

GC

Then it is god's fault that Satan and the other angels sinned because if god can make it so we don't have the opportunity to choose anything bad in Heaven, he could have done the same for them. The catch is, if you explain how they sinned, you will also be explaining how we could sin as well.

Your answers are good if we don't look at them to closely. I have yet to meet a Christian who can give me an answer that doesn't fall apart upon close inspection.

[Randy Carson]

Makes it kind of cheap, if you ask me.  Is that your idea of heaven then, no more bad choices [emphasis added]?  A picture of a man emerges.... 

Oh, my. Yes, indeed.

If there is no free will in heaven, it would be kinda cheap, wouldn't it?

SO, WHY IS EARTH ANY DIFFERENT?

I've been saying all along that the reason that there is suffering and pain in this life is because without free will, we would be robots and life would become trivial. Without free will here on earth, "no more bad choices".

You have reasoned your way to the Christian perspective quite well.

(Undoubtedly, many denials, retractions and rebuttals will follow, but the cat is out of the bag.)

[Cato]

You however threw away God as one would trash, claiming He doesn't exist, so how is it you can say what you do about the God you claim doesn't exist, actually why do you say the things you do about something that doesn't exist. That would be like me getting mad at the pink unicorn and throwing a temper tantrum at the very thing I do not believe exists, for me it would be a stupid and foolish thing to do, even worse it would be a total waste of my time.

The last time I checked there wasn't a significant horde of gullible morons running around trying to wield political power to compel fellow citizens to live in accordance with their interpretation of what the pink unicorn is supposed to have said. It has absolutely nothing to do with your imaginary friend and everything to do with what the likes of you attempt to do with your fantasy. If you kept your childish deontology to yourself there wouldn't be any issues.

[Cato]

Without free will here on earth, "no more bad choices".

So in the end, all you've done is agree that heaven is great because it has an unlimited supply of hookers and blow.

[Jenny A]

Do people have the capacity to sin in heaven?

Why would they?

Because if they are still people after resurrection, they will still behave like people.

If heaven is without sin: either:  (1) people are changed upon entering heaven so that they lack the capacity or the will to sin (a violation of free will and rather Stepford Wife like--ick); or (2) heaven itself must be designed in such a way as to prevent sin (a violation of free will rather Big Brother Like--ick); or (3) everything is so wonderful that no one will want to sin (really, really hard to imagine and calls into question why this world was ever created); or (4) god changes the rules so that nothing is a sin any longer (making the idea of morality completely arbitrary).

In the first two possibilities free will is the ultimate thing god must not deprive people of on earth and the thing he must deprive people of in heaven.  Very puzzling that.  In the third we have to wonder why this world was created at all since a much better one is possible (if it is indeed possible).   In the fourth, morality is completely arbitrary calling into question any need for hell let alone Jesus' sacrifice.

What this puzzle says to me is that heaven is one more deeply flawed idea of christianity, right up there with the remission of sins by the sacrifice of a third party, and punishment for the sins of one's remote ancestors.

[Rhondazvous]

Let me see if I can construct a generic apologetics argument:

2) God can do what he wants because no one can stop him.

3) God gets to say what is and isn't "good", because no on can stop him doing so.

4) God says everything he does is good, so it is. Because he says so.

5) God isn't constrained by logic or arguments, because he invented those in the first place. So if you think you've found a way to show that anything about god or his actions are incoherent, contradictory or impossible, you're wrong and he is right.

6) Everything is evidence that god exists. My god, that is.



So we can see by point 6 that god does exist, and by point 5 there can be freewill in heaven without contradicting sin and free will being intertwined.

Whoops, did I miss out the first part of the argument? Yes, apologists always miss out this point. Here it is:

1) I presume to speak for god.

Well, I'll stop you right there. You can presume whatever you want. If god wants to say something, let him say it. You'd think of all people he wouldn't have trouble communicating. Is he locked in a soundproof dungeon?

What scares me the most is that people like this, people like Brich for example, are of the same mindset as the most extreme supporters of Islam. And we know where that brings us to.

If Christians had power in this country as Muslims have in Afghanistan, we need only look at the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Salam witch hunts to know what things would be like here.

Anybody who thinks we're slaves spiritually anyway would have no problem reinstituting slavery as a real institution. The man is sick and GC is overdue for a visit from the men in the long white coats.
.

[Randy Carson]

Why would they?

Because if they are still people after resurrection, they will still behave like people.

If heaven is without sin: either:  (1) people are changed upon entering heaven so that they lack the capacity or the will to sin (a violation of free will and rather Stepford Wife like--ick); or (2) heaven itself must be designed in such a way as to prevent sin (a violation of free will rather Big Brother Like--ick); or (3) everything is so wonderful that no one will want to sin (really, really hard to imagine and calls into question why this world was ever created); or (4) god changes the rules so that nothing is a sin any longer (making the idea of morality completely arbitrary).

In the first two possibilities free will is the ultimate thing god must not deprive people of on earth and the thing he must deprive people of in heaven.  Very puzzling that.  In the third we have to wonder why this world was created at all since a much better one is possible (if it is indeed possible).   In the fourth, morality is completely arbitrary calling into question any need for hell let alone Jesus' sacrifice.

What this puzzle says to me is that heaven is one more deeply flawed idea of christianity, right up there with the remission of sins by the sacrifice of a third party, and punishment for the sins of one's remote ancestors.

As Jimmy Akin opines here, there are two options:

1. We are no longer able to choose sin. This still allows for free will in that we may choose between different "goods".
2. Your (3). While choosing "bads" might still be possible, who would want to do so?

Akin's 2/Your 3 does not call into question why this world was created. God created us to know and love Him, and it is here in this life that we are given an opportunity to make a free commitment--or not. Akin draws this analogy:

"While there are many situations in this life in which we freely make commitments to each other, a particularly striking one is the case of a marriage.
We would not value the love of a robot. Stepford wives are just creepy. And we would not want to impose marriage on someone against their will. That would involve the abomination of rape, among other things.

"We want our mates to freely choose us. This is true even in societies that have arranged marriages. There must be a fundamental, free consent on the part of both spouses or the marriage will not be valid. (Not from the Catholic Church's point of view, anyway.) But marriage isn't a momentary choice that involves no commitment. It's a life-long commitment. What we value, then, is a free choice that leads to a permanent commitment."

God values it, too.

I hope you will take a couple of minutes to read Akin's article in its entirety.

[Rhondazvous]

Makes it kind of cheap, if you ask me.  Is that your idea of heaven then, no more bad choices [emphasis added]?  A picture of a man emerges.... 

Oh, my. Yes, indeed.

If there is no free will in heaven, it would be kinda cheap, wouldn't it?

SO, WHY IS EARTH ANY DIFFERENT?

I've been saying all along that the reason that there is suffering and pain in this life is because without free will, we would be robots and life would become trivial. Without free will here on earth, "no more bad choices".

You have reasoned your way to the Christian perspective quite well.

(Undoubtedly, many denials, retractions and rebuttals will follow, but the cat is out of the bag.)

I never thought I'd give kudos to a theist, but thank you, Randy from the bottom of my heart. You have buttressed the point of this thread more than the last 12 pages.

Now DRICH and GC, you've put a great deal of effort denying what Randy has just confirmed, Christians have said that freewill is the reason god allows sin. If this is so then either we won't have freewill in Heaven or we will be able to sin there. If it will be possible to have freewill without sin in Heaven then it would have been possible in the Garden of Eden and thus here on Earth.

Take any aspect of the Christian story to its logical conclusion and you have impossibilities, contradictions and situations that just ain't so.

[IATIA]

1. We are no longer able to choose sin. This still allows for free will in that we may choose between different "goods".

So wanting to be as god and getting kicked out of heaven was good? Taking the earth women was good?

[Randy Carson]

Oh, my. Yes, indeed.

If there is no free will in heaven, it would be kinda cheap, wouldn't it?

SO, WHY IS EARTH ANY DIFFERENT?

I've been saying all along that the reason that there is suffering and pain in this life is because without free will, we would be robots and life would become trivial. Without free will here on earth, "no more bad choices".

You have reasoned your way to the Christian perspective quite well.

(Undoubtedly, many denials, retractions and rebuttals will follow, but the cat is out of the bag.)

I never thought I'd give kudos to a theist, but thank you, Randy from the bottom of my heart. You have buttressed the point of this thread more than the last 12 pages.

Now DRICH  and GC, you've put a great deal of effort denying what Randy has just confirmed, Christians have said that freewill is the reason god allows sin. If this is so then either we won't have freewill in Heaven or we will be able to sin there.  If it will be possible to have freewill without sin in Heaven then it would have been possible in the Garden of Eden and thus here on Earth.  

Take any aspect of the Christian story to its logical conclusion and you have impossibilities, contradictions and situations that just ain't so.

Thank you.

Just don't miss post #127 which covers your concerns about "impossibilities, contradictions and situations that just ain't so."