What Human Rights?

[Catholic_Lady]

Except I never used the word "animals."  I said "mankind."  I guess you assumed what I said, instead of reading what you quoted me saying?

I still have an unanswered question.  What, ANYWHERE, leads you to think that God has established rights which all human beings should expect to enjoy, thereby establishing those rights as absolute, and not as purely arbitrary?  You say you have this idea.  I just want to know where it comes from.  Not the Bible, you say?  The catechism?  Okay, show me.

Whoa, totally misread that. Sorry, I was side tracked watching some Big Bang Theory with my husband.

Here is a Catholic site that explains what the Catholic position is in regards to human rights. When you see "compendium" listed as the source, they are referring to the catechism

EDIT TO ADD:

Here's an excerpt to be sure I'm not going against the rules:

"In the Church's view, human rights are not something that man creates out of whole cloth, on mere subjective whim, by social contract, or through popular vote.  Man is not the measure of human rights.  God is the measure of human rights.  In the eyes of the Church, human rights are based upon an objective moral order.  Most fundamentally, human rights are built upon human dignity, which, as we may recall, comes from the fact that man is made in the image and likeness of God and is called to communion with God.  The "roots of human rights," the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church observes, "are to be found in the dignity that belongs to each human being." (Compendium, No. 152)"

[bennyboy]

But I'm not being a heretic against my Catholic faith. As I have explained to you already, as a Catholic, I believe the Church is the pillar of truth, not the bible. Not all Truth can be found in the bible.

Of course not all truth is in the Bible. It's true that I'm now getting a headache, and that is not in the Bible.

But there's a difference between that and establishing that there are MIS-truths in the Bible, or truths that contradict your position about rights. I've given specific examples of Biblical texts that oppose your view, and I believe I could provide easily 50 quotes from the Bible, which directly contradict your position. So far, I'm waiting for you to provide any source, at all, for your ideas about human rights. Right now, it seems to me that you're a nice lady who identifies as catholic, but doesn't much care for the Christian texts. But I'm very willing to drop that impression as soon as you support your ideas with text from ANY religious source about inalienable rights which extend to all mankind.

A lot of it, yes, but not all of it alone. Let me know if there is anything about this that you still don't understand and I'll try to clear it up.

Yes. As I've now mentioned several times, I don't understand how as a Catholic, you've arrived at your position about human rights. Is it that you have a "feeling" we have rights, and the other church ladies agree with you? Did you have a dream about human rights? Where, exactly, has this belief come from? And please don't just keep saying "the catechism." Let's get some quotes happening, please.

[Catholic_Lady]

But I'm not being a heretic against my Catholic faith. As I have explained to you already, as a Catholic, I believe the Church is the pillar of truth, not the bible. Not all Truth can be found in the bible.

Of course not all truth is in the Bible.  It's true that I'm now getting a headache, and that is not in the Bible.

But there's a difference between that and establishing that there are MIS-truths in the Bible, or truths that contradict your position about rights.  I've given specific examples of Biblical texts that oppose your view, and I believe I could provide easily 50 quotes from the Bible, which directly contradict your position.  So far, I'm waiting for you to provide any source, at all, for your ideas about human rights.  Right now, it seems to me that you're a nice lady who identifies as catholic, but doesn't much care for the Christian texts.  But I'm very willing to drop that impression as soon as you support your ideas with text from ANY religious source about inalienable rights which extend to all mankind.

A lot of it, yes, but not all of it alone. Let me know if there is anything about this that you still don't understand and I'll try to clear it up.

Yes.  As I've now mentioned several times, I don't understand how as a Catholic, you've arrived at your position about human rights.  Is it that you have a "feeling" we have rights, and the other church ladies agree with you?  Did you have a dream about human rights?  Where, exactly, has this belief come from?  And please don't just keep saying "the catechism."  Let's get some quotes happening, please.

Check out my post right above this one. Came a little late, sorry.

[The Grand Nudger]

It would be helpful if the "compendium" references actually -referenced- the catechism...don't you think?  Whats the key?  For example, Compendium 153 -is not- Catechism 153.  Or, if it is......it's worse than I thought.......

Heres what is referenced as "Compendium 153"...in that article:

The fundamental source of human rights is human nature, which is to say, that nature as created by God. God, then, may be said to be the ultimate guarantor as He is the ultimate foundation of human rights. Human rights are therefore different from civil rights, the latter being based upon the positive laws of the State. What the State gives, the State may give away. But human rights are not given and taken.

Human rights are simply given by God. They are not to be taken by the State or by any human being without giving offense to God. "The ultimate source of human rights is not found in the mere will of human being, in the reality of the State, in public powers, but in man himself and in God his Creator." (Compendium, No. 153)

Here's the catechism, 153:

When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come "from flesh and blood", but from "my Father who is in heaven". [Mt 16:17; cf. Gal 1:15; Mt 11:25.] Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'" [DV 5; cf. DS 377; 3010.] [552, 1814, 1996, 2606]

...............................?

Here's catechism 152, compare this with your post before last, wherein you quoted the article....referenced as "compendium 152"

One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is. For "no one can say "Jesus is Lord", except by the Holy Spirit", [1 Cor 12:3.] who "searches everything, even the depths of God. . No one comprehends the thoughts of God, except the Spirit of God." [1 Cor 2:10-11.] Only God knows God completely: we believe in the Holy Spirit because he is God. [243, 683]
The Church never ceases to proclaim her faith in one only God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. [232]

Just to be thorough, I'll repost your chosen quote.

---

"In the Church's view, human rights are not something that man creates out of whole cloth, on mere subjective whim, by social contract, or through popular vote. Man is not the measure of human rights. God is the measure of human rights. In the eyes of the Church, human rights are based upon an objective moral order. Most fundamentally, human rights are built upon human dignity, which, as we may recall, comes from the fact that man is made in the image and likeness of God and is called to communion with God. The "roots of human rights," the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church observes, "are to be found in the dignity that belongs to each human being." (Compendium, No. 152)"

---

Am I missing something? Are they actually referring to the catechism? Is that, btw, how you arrived at your current opinion on human rights? You poured over the catechism? Hopefully no one will be expected to believe that...lol.

Now, heres The Compendium....152 and 153.....that's "Compendium of the Catholic Church", mind you...

---

152. What does it mean to say that the Church is the universal sacrament of salvation?

774-776
780

This means that she is the sign and instrument both of the reconciliation and communion of all of humanity with God and of the unity of the entire human race.

The Church: people of God,
body of Christ, temple of the Spirit

153. Why is the Church the ‘people of God’?

781
802-804

The Church is the ‘people of God’ because it pleased God to sanctify and save men not in isolation but by making them into one people gathered together by the unity of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

---

[Catholic_Lady]

It would be helpful if the "compendium" references actually -referenced- the catechism...don't you think?  Whats the key?  For example, Compendium 153 -is not- Catechism 153.  Or, if it is......it's worse than I thought.......

Heres what is referenced as "Compendium 153"...in that article:

The fundamental source of human rights is human nature, which is to say, that nature as created by God.  God, then, may be said to be the ultimate guarantor as He is the ultimate foundation of human rights.  Human rights are therefore different from civil rights, the latter being based upon the positive laws of the State.  What the State gives, the State may give away.  But human rights are not given and taken.

Human rights are simply given by God.  They are not to be taken by the State or by any human being without giving offense to God.  "The ultimate source of human rights is not found in the mere will of human being, in the reality of the State, in public powers, but in man himself and in God his Creator." (Compendium, No. 153)

Here's the catechism, 153:

When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come "from flesh and blood", but from "my Father who is in heaven". [Mt 16:17; cf. Gal 1:15; Mt 11:25.] Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'" [DV 5; cf. DS 377; 3010.] [552, 1814, 1996, 2606]

...............................?

Here's catechism 152, compare this with your post before last, wherein you quoted the article....referenced as "compendium 152"

One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is. For "no one can say "Jesus is Lord", except by the Holy Spirit", [1 Cor 12:3.] who "searches everything, even the depths of God. . No one comprehends the thoughts of God, except the Spirit of God." [1 Cor 2:10-11.] Only God knows God completely: we believe in the Holy Spirit because he is God. [243, 683]
        The Church never ceases to proclaim her faith in one only God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. [232]

Just to be thorough, I'll repost your chosen quote.

---

"In the Church's view, human rights are not something that man creates out of whole cloth, on mere subjective whim, by social contract, or through popular vote.  Man is not the measure of human rights.  God is the measure of human rights.  In the eyes of the Church, human rights are based upon an objective moral order.  Most fundamentally, human rights are built upon human dignity, which, as we may recall, comes from the fact that man is made in the image and likeness of God and is called to communion with God.  The "roots of human rights," the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church observes, "are to be found in the dignity that belongs to each human being." (Compendium, No. 152)"

---

Am I missing something?  Are they actually referring to the catechism...as you claimed?   Is that, btw, how you arrived at your current opinion on human rights?  You poured over the catechism?  Hopefully no one will be expected to believe that...lol.

A compendium is a condensed version of the catechism. The catechism is huge, so the compendium just summarizes it a bit: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachin...ompendium/

It might not be available for free online. But whatever is in the compendium catechism is also in the regular catechism.

[The Grand Nudger]

I linked the compendium from the vatican......they don't match either. Is your link a printing in which the articles and their designations match?
(of course the catechism and the compendium of the catechism match......the compedium is basically an idex..lol, what doesn;t seem to match is the author of that articles designations. I'm trying to understand his conclusions.....I'll need an accurate address for the info he's using, as it were...lol. If it's from the compedium, which printing, and do the numbers refer to their compendium designations or a particular page number.....shouldn't you know some of this, if this is where your belief in human rights comes from, if you're counting on this to be an explanation?)

[Catholic_Lady]

I linked the compendium from the vatican......they don't match either.  Is your link a printing in which the articles and their designations match?
(of course the catechism and the compendium of the catechism match......the compedium is basically an idex..lol, what doesn;t seem to match is the author of that articles designations.  I'm trying to understand his conclusions.....I'll need an accurate address for the info he's using, as it were...lol.)

Try looking for it here. Also on the official Vatican site, but a different section. My fault for mixing up the compendiums.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontif...oc_en.html

[The Grand Nudger]

Thank you.  That's -not- the catechism, btw....lol.  

So...

153. In fact, the roots of human rights are to be found in the dignity that belongs to each human being[305]. This dignity, inherent in human life and equal in every person, is perceived and understood first of all by reason. The natural foundation of rights appears all the more solid when, in
light of the supernatural, it is considered that human dignity, after having been given by God and having been profoundly wounded by sin, was taken on and redeemed by Jesus Christ in his incarnation, death and resurrection[306].
The ultimate source of human rights is not found in the mere will of human beings[307], in the reality of the State, in public powers, but in man himself and in God his Creator. These rights are “universal, inviolable, inalienable”[308]. Universal because they are present in all human beings, without exception of time, place or subject. Inviolable insofar as “they are inherent in the human person and in human dignity”[309] and because “it would be vain to proclaim rights, if at the same time everything were not done to ensure the duty of respecting them by all people, everywhere, and for all people”[310]. Inalienable insofar as “no one can legitimately deprive another person, whoever they may be, of these rights, since this would do violence to their nature”[311].

Well, with this (and the authors earlier quoted remarks) in mind, I can't say I'm onboard.  Would I have no dignity were I not a created being, you?  I think that you would grant human dignity even in the absence of a god.  Truthfully, what more do you think is required for human dignity....than human beings?  If our rights exist and are based in dignity (also a popular secular justification - you can hold this to be true without believing in god, people do) then so long as dignity exists, those human rights can exist...regardless of whether or not god exists.

[Catholic_Lady]

Thank you.  That's -not- the catechism, btw....lol.  

So...

153. In fact, the roots of human rights are to be found in the dignity that belongs to each human being[305]. This dignity, inherent in human life and equal in every person, is perceived and understood first of all by reason. The natural foundation of rights appears all the more solid when, in
light of the supernatural, it is considered that human dignity, after having been given by God and having been profoundly wounded by sin, was taken on and redeemed by Jesus Christ in his incarnation, death and resurrection[306].
The ultimate source of human rights is not found in the mere will of human beings[307], in the reality of the State, in public powers, but in man himself and in God his Creator. These rights are “universal, inviolable, inalienable”[308]. Universal because they are present in all human beings, without exception of time, place or subject. Inviolable insofar as “they are inherent in the human person and in human dignity”[309] and because “it would be vain to proclaim rights, if at the same time everything were not done to ensure the duty of respecting them by all people, everywhere, and for all people”[310]. Inalienable insofar as “no one can legitimately deprive another person, whoever they may be, of these rights, since this would do violence to their nature”[311].

Well, with this (and the authors earlier quoted remarks) I can't say I'm onboard.  Would I have no dignity were I not a created being, you?  I think that you would grant human dignity even in the absence of a god.  Truthfully, what more do you think is required for human dignity....than human beings?  If our rights are based in dignity (also a popular secular justification - you can believe this without believing in god, people do) then so long as human dignity exists, those rights exist...regardless of whether or not god exists.

My fault.  When I read "compendium" I assumed they were referring to the compendium of the Catechism, not to the compendium of social doctrine. They are both Church documents and representatives of the teachings of the Church.

Well the thing is, we don't believe any of us would exist in the first place if there was no God or if God hadn't created us. So it's kind of a moot point to say "Oh see??? They're saying I would be worth nothing if not for God!!!" Well, yeah, you would be worth nothing because you wouldn't exist lol.

[The Grand Nudger]

No, it's not a moot point, and you don't get to hide behind the word belief in this case.  Those were -justifications- for beliefs, Catholic.  They were arguments, meant to be compelling and authoritative...about human rights, a non-whimsical subject.

Are you unwilling to affirm that if there where no god there could be no dignity? This is just a hypothetical, Cath, all I'm changing from your current POV is the god article. You don't have to believe it, or believe that this is the world we live in. I'm simply asking you whether or not you think dignity could exist in a world where people do...but god does not.