What Human Rights?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Personally, being a Christian, I believe the "rights" you are talking about are inherent rights assigned to us by God.

If I did not believe these rights were assigned to us by someone higher, then I would not believe they were inherent human rights.

Is the right to life inherent? Then why does your god take it away?

Is the right to free speech inherent? Then why does your god damn people to Hell for blasphemy?

Is the freedom of conscience a human right? If not, why complain about imprisoning Christians in China (not that you have, but others do), and if so, how do you explain the damnation of nonbelievers?

Your god assigns no rights at all. Your god assigns privileges which he revokes on a whim, according to your own biblical history.

This idea that human rights devolve from the Judeo-Christian god is fatuous given that same god's repeated violation of those alleged rights.

There are no such things as objective rights. Rights are a social construct. Attempting to credit them to your god is simply an attempt to attach your superstition to a more firm and realistic base. Societies exist. Societies extend or deny rights insofar as its members agree to its social contract. A society which denies all rights wins few adherents (which is why the Berlin Wall was necessary, for instance) -- and a society which grants rights in an arbitrary fashion is inherently unstable (which is why America had the Civil War).

If you believe in natural rights, you'll need to show where, exactly, they exist in nature. Because in nature, and you and I both know this, we neither enjoy even the right to breathe.

Every breath is a gift, upon which you have no claim. And though we each read that last sentence through different lenses, you know exactly what I'm saying. Call it God, life, or nature, the world doesn't owe any one of us a goddamned thing.

[Excited Penguin]

I don't believe anyone has 'rights'. I think people should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want to each other - we would fare far better like that.

[Catholic_Lady]

Personally, being a Christian, I believe the "rights" you are talking about are inherent rights assigned to us by God.

If I did not believe these rights were assigned to us by someone higher, then I would not believe they were inherent human rights.

Is the right to life inherent?  Then why does your god take it away?

Is the right to free speech inherent? Then why does your god damn people to Hell for blasphemy?

Is the freedom of conscience a human right?  If not, why complain about imprisoning Christians in China (not that you have, but others do), and if so, how do you explain the damnation of nonbelievers?

Your god assigns no rights at all.  Your god assigns privileges which he revokes on a whim, according to your own biblical history.

This idea that human rights devolve from the Judeo-Christian god is fatuous given that same god's repeated violation of those alleged rights.

There are no such things as objective rights.  Rights are a social construct.  Attempting to credit them to your god is simply an attempt to attach your superstition to a more firm and realistic base. Societies exist.  Societies extend or deny rights insofar as its members agree to its social contract.  A society which denies all rights wins few adherents (which is why the Berlin Wall was necessary, for instance) -- and a society which grants rights in an arbitrary fashion is inherently unstable (which is why America had the Civil War).

If you believe in natural rights, you'll need to show where, exactly, they exist in nature. Because in nature, and you and I both know this, we neither enjoy even the right to breathe.

Every breath is a gift, upon which you have no claim. And though we each read that last sentence through different lenses, you know exactly what I'm saying. Call it God, life, or nature, the world doesn't owe any one of us a goddamned thing.

I respect your views.

[Catholic_Lady]

No, it's not a moot point, and you don't get to hide behind the word belief in this case.  Those were -justifications- for beliefs, Catholic.  They were arguments, meant to be compelling and authoritative.  

Are you unwilling to affirm that if there where no god there would be no dignity?  This is a hypothetical, Cath, all I'm changing is god.  You don't have to believe it, or believe that this is the world we live in.  I'm simply asking you whether or not you think dignity could exist in a world where people do...but god does not?

I have no idea what you are talking about as far as "justification" for my beliefs go. I'm answering you honestly. We believe that if God didn't exist, or if He hadn't created us, we wouldn't exist. If you don't accept my answers as an honest answer, or if you're going to accuse me of "justification," then I don't see the point in asking.  

Now to answer your hypothetical question... If I believed a God did not exist then I would take the exact same position on this as a lot of the atheists on this site: that human life has no inherent dignity. Since I believe inherent dignity was given to us by God, I don't believe it would be there if He did not exist.

[Catholic_Lady]

No, it's not a moot point, and you don't get to hide behind the word belief in this case.  Those were -justifications- for beliefs, Catholic.  They were arguments, meant to be compelling and authoritative.  

Are you unwilling to affirm that if there where no god there would be no dignity?  This is a hypothetical, Cath, all I'm changing is god.  You don't have to believe it, or believe that this is the world we live in.  I'm simply asking you whether or not you think dignity could exist in a world where people do...but god does not?

I have no idea what you are talking about as far as "justification" for my beliefs go. I'm answering you honestly. We believe that if God didn't exist, or if He hadn't created us, we wouldn't exist. If you don't accept my answers as an honest answer, or if you're going to accuse me of "justification," then I don't see the point in asking.  

Now to answer your hypothetical question... If I believed a God did not exist then I would take the exact some position on this as a lot of the atheists on this site: that human life has no inherent dignity. Since I believe inherent dignity was given to us by God, I don't believe it would be there if He did not exist.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-34114.html

[The Grand Nudger]

"If god didn't exist I wouldn't know right from wrong"

"If god didn't exist I wouldn't believe in human rights"

"If god didn't exist, I wouldn't believe that a human life could have dignity"

If god didn't exist, you'd be a pretty shitty person...by both of our standards, huh? Again, is this really what you want me to accept as truth, about you? You seem to think I'm questioning the honesty of your belief......I'm questioning your knowledge of self. The article and the doctrine invoked dignity as a source. You believe in dignity. If all that changed about your beliefs tommorow where the belief in god, let me repeat, you woke up and continued believing in absolutely everything that you already do...except that one thing, that god........you would still believe in dignity - and so, you would be able to use -precisely the same- justification for your belief in human rights as an atheist....that you do now, as a catholic (not that I'd buy for a minute you'd ever looked this up before tonight). Can you see why I doubt that your falling away from the faith would lead to you changing your acceptance of human rights?

[Catholic_Lady]

1. If god didn't exist I wouldn't know right from wrong"

2. "If god didn't exist I wouldn't believe in human rights"

3. "If god didn't exist, I wouldn't believe that a human life could have dignity"

(numbers mine)

1. I did NOT say this, and have actually said the complete opposite from this MANY times in this forum. Including just a few pages back. But you know that.

2. If God didn't exist I would not believe in "human rights" in the sense that they are rights that are inherent to humanity. This is the position of MANY of the atheists here. So you trying to paint me as a bad person for saying I would take the common atheist view makes absolutely 0 sense.

3. Once again, this is the same exact position of a lot of people here. Have you not been reading these responses? Did you not see my conversation with JennyA? Did you not read the thread I linked you to??

You are misrepresenting me, putting words in my mouth, continuously accusing me of things I never said and don't believe, and condemning me for saying that if I was atheist I would have the same views regarding these things as many atheists here.
Like I said before, I did not come to this site to be treated like this by a grown man. You seemed to get better for a second there and interested in having an honest discussion, so I gave you a second chance. I've been trying to like you as a forum member, I really have. Now I see you are back to your old self. It was a mistake for me to have started trying to engage in conversation with you again.

This will be my last post to you. Have a good night.

[The Grand Nudger]

1. I did NOT say this, and have actually said the complete opposite from this MANY times in this forum. Including just a few pages back. But you know that.

LOL< christ, you won't take a hint...will you?  I -know-.  One down, two to go.  

2. If God didn't exist I would not believe in "human rights" in the sense that they are rights that are inherent to humanity. This is the position of MANY of the atheists here. So you trying to paint me as a bad person for saying I would take the common atheist view makes absolutely 0 sense.

I'm not trying to paint you as a bad person at all.....you are.  I keep suggesting that you would retain your better qualities, like your belief in the dignity of life and the existence of human rights, regardless.  

3. Once again, this is the same exact position of a lot of people here. Have you not been reading these responses? Did you not see my conversation with JennyA? Did you not read the thread I linked you to??

You are misrepresenting me, putting words in my mouth, continuously accusing me of things I never said and don't believe, and condemning me for saying that if I was atheist I would have the same views regarding these things as many atheists here.

Condemning you....lol,  climb down off the stage.  I'm suggesting that since your current justification for human rights doesn't actually -require- a god to exist...regardless of whether or not one does, or you believe that one does......that you being an atheist or a catholic wouldn't modify your position flowing -from- that justification.  Atheism doesn't make any claims to dignity. If you became an atheist, you would cease to believe in god, not dignity. Maybe some of these other atheists don't accept an argument from dignity...-but you do-. The argument from dignity is not exclusive to god nor is the concept of dignity itself, neither are barred from you for lack of belief in god. I would expect you to continue to believe in many of the things you -already- believe in. Do you understand? I know, I know, you've claimed that if you didn't believe in god you wouldn't believe in dignity, but recall that first "if I were an atheist"........you seem to have gotten around god on that one, I'm guessing you can get around god here too.

Like I said before, I did not come to this site to be treated like this by a grown man. You seemed to get better for a second there and interested in having an honest discussion, so I gave you a second chance. I've been trying to like you as a forum member, I really have. Now I see you are back to your old self. It was a mistake for me to have started trying to engage in conversation with you again.

This will be my last post to you. Have a good night.

There you go again.  Try to own it next time. You know how often we have to watch these little "If I were an atheist" firecrackers go off? Surprise, surprise.....you guys don't know much about atheism, or being an atheist....so you're bound to get some of this mixed up. Now...you just -flat out bullshitted- your way through this entire conversation with me, and now you're gonna bitch about my being a big meanie? Your churches authoritative position on the matter is deference to an argument from dignity, one of many arguments leveraged equally as well by -secular- advocates. You didn't know this when we began, it isn't where you thought it would be, your sources didn't refer to what you claimed they did, and you;d have known that if you had prior knowledge, or took ten seconds to google past the first friendly looking link, all the while, filling every awkward space with prevarication and backpedaling.

Sweet dreams.

[ignoramus]

I believe she is exercising her god given emotions!
And one of them is for you Rhythm! I wonder which one?

[Anomalocaris]

such "human right" as you might imagine you have transecends nothing.   It is strictly what other humans have condescended to permit you not to actually have, but to merely pretend to have.