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RE: What Human Rights?
July 17, 2015 at 5:07 pm
(July 17, 2015 at 5:05 pm)Chuck Wrote: (July 17, 2015 at 9:34 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ^And that is exactly what I would believe too, if I did not believe in God. that's what I'm saying. Hopefully no one here will be angry at you for saying it, like they were with me for saying I'd believe this too if I was atheist. 
Believing God so you can pretend facts are not what they are, but what you wish them to be, does the concept of god no credit, much less anyone who would embrace the concept of God for that reason.
I respect your views.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 17, 2015 at 6:18 pm
(July 17, 2015 at 4:35 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: (July 17, 2015 at 4:12 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The human right to Justice means that people get their due. The innocent and righteous retain their life and liberty. Criminals who are punished are getting their just desserts. So no, God does not take away rights at whim, but in accordance with His perfect judgment.
You guys really have a warped sense of human rights if you believe that having a right makes you immune to justice.
It is funny how you don't keep your story straight:
(July 17, 2015 at 1:07 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The Lord is sovereign and has no moral obligation to all His Creation. ...
So, are you now telling us bullshit lies, or were you previously telling us bullshit lies? No contradiction at all. God is good to us even though he doesn't have to be. That's what we call grace.
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 17, 2015 at 6:29 pm
(This post was last modified: July 17, 2015 at 6:34 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If he doesn't have to be than their is no "due"....understand? People don't get their due...they get whatever god gives them. Or people get whatever's "due" to them...and god -does- have to be nice......or mean, depending on whatever it is they're....due.
The notions of "dues" is nonsensical without obligation. I'm afraid you can't have it both ways....so, which is more important to you, that people get what they're "due", or that god has no moral obligations to us?
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 17, 2015 at 7:21 pm
(July 16, 2015 at 8:51 am)ChadWooters Wrote: The idea of inalienable human rights is inconsistent with modern atheism. Period.
Do you mean inalienable or unalienable rights?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 17, 2015 at 7:32 pm
(July 17, 2015 at 1:57 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: (July 16, 2015 at 8:51 am)ChadWooters Wrote: The idea of inalienable human rights is inconsistent with modern atheism. Period.
The idea of inalienable human rights is inconsistent with Christianity. God can take away any rights at any time, if he is omnipotent. Would you be including things like....
It used to be OK to kill your child for being disobedient, but today it is not?
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 17, 2015 at 7:41 pm
(July 17, 2015 at 6:18 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: (July 17, 2015 at 4:35 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: It is funny how you don't keep your story straight:
So, are you now telling us bullshit lies, or were you previously telling us bullshit lies? No contradiction at all. God is good to us even though he doesn't have to be. That's what we call grace.
Is that why people get bone cancer? Because God is good to us? Is that why the majority are going to hell, according to the Bible? Is that why God commanded murder and rape, according to the Bible?
Your claim is just another goddamned lie.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 17, 2015 at 7:53 pm
(This post was last modified: July 17, 2015 at 7:55 pm by Muad·Dib.)
Sorry, late to the thread..
I do "believe" human rights exist, but only because we've defined them as so. I do not believe they exist outside of what society predefines. There is no objective, eternal set of human rights handed down from Mount Wiggly endowing us as some super-deity's stuck up children.
All of what we define as human rights stem from evolutionary traits. Example: X is good for the species, while Y is bad. When groups of human embraced X they became stronger, surpassing group Y. Over time we came to define these very beneficial traits and use big words such as "human rights", "morality", etc. They are beneficial to the human race regardless of any philosophical definition we've chosen as labels for them. If we never proposed and wrote down as law the idea of human rights they'd still exist as evolutionary traits. We're wired to see these patterns, we define them as good and evil, etc.
So while I believe in human rights, I don't believe in human rights. If that makes sense...
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 2:38 am
(July 17, 2015 at 12:36 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Sorry, PT. Here are your questions in bold:
Is the right to life inherent? Yes.
Then why does your god take it away? You mean why do people die? Either because someone killed them, or because of natural causes. God gives people free will, and God allows nature to take its coarse. Per my beliefs, God does not come down from Heaven and murder people.
The wages of sin are death. Before the Fall, humans were immortal. Your god took that away from every human who has ever lived.
(July 17, 2015 at 12:36 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Is the right to free speech inherent? As an absolute? No. Your employer is allowed to fire you for cussing out the customers, for example.
Then why does your god damn people to Hell for blasphemy? Saying "God damns people to Hell for blasphemy" is simplistic. I believe each person is judged individually based on what was in their hearts at the time they sinned. If a person ultimately rejects goodness and love, they go to the only place where those things are not present.
Not so fast. Even speaking your lord's name in vain is listed in your Bible as an unforgivable sin.
(July 17, 2015 at 12:36 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Is the freedom of conscience a human right? I'm not sure what this means.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/def...conscience
(July 17, 2015 at 12:36 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If not, why complain about imprisoning Christians in China (not that you have, but others do), and if so, how do you explain the damnation of nonbelievers? I'm not sure what you are referring to. And I don't believe that all atheists automatically go to Hell. Once again, each person is judged individually, and I don't think that simply not believing in God during this life automatically disqualifies someone from Heaven.
Hmm, if you don't think nonbelievers go to hell, are you really Christian? Is there catechism, supported by biblical verse, that says nonbelievers can get into heaven?
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 2:40 am
(July 17, 2015 at 1:07 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: (July 17, 2015 at 9:28 am)bennyboy Wrote: If God is required for existence, then God is required for the existence of human rights. That's fine. However, the existence of God does not necessitate the existence of human rights. Therefore, whether you believe God exists or not, you have to demonstrate that rights DO exist-- and you can be especially helpful by showing us a passage in the Bible or any other Catholic doctrine that affirms the inherent reality of rights among all members of humankind.
The Lord is sovereign and has no moral obligation to all His Creation. To question His authority represents an arrogant attempt to elevate yourself to His equal. (Romans 9:19-21) Do you consider yourself His equal that you could judge him? (see Job 39) No one has any claim on the Creator and yet the Judeo-Christian God is one of both Justice and Mercy. (Psalms 50:6, Rev. 15:3-4)
Human rights are the natural consequence of both His Lordship and Righteousness. Because Man was made in His image (Gen. 1:27), we were created to act justly towards one another like He is (Matthew 5:48, Lev 19:2). By rational demonstration, Aquinas shows human rights as "what is due to each", i.e. justice.
Your god does not exist. I am not his equal, I am infinitely superior to him, because I have the perfection of existence, to quote one of your dusty old saints.
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 4:17 am
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2015 at 4:18 am by Kingpin.)
(July 18, 2015 at 2:40 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: (July 17, 2015 at 1:07 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The Lord is sovereign and has no moral obligation to all His Creation. To question His authority represents an arrogant attempt to elevate yourself to His equal. (Romans 9:19-21) Do you consider yourself His equal that you could judge him? (see Job 39) No one has any claim on the Creator and yet the Judeo-Christian God is one of both Justice and Mercy. (Psalms 50:6, Rev. 15:3-4)
Human rights are the natural consequence of both His Lordship and Righteousness. Because Man was made in His image (Gen. 1:27), we were created to act justly towards one another like He is (Matthew 5:48, Lev 19:2). By rational demonstration, Aquinas shows human rights as "what is due to each", i.e. justice.
Your god does not exist. I am not his equal, I am infinitely superior to him, because I have the perfection of existence, to quote one of your dusty old saints.
To claim "your God does not exist". Claims that you know with absolute certainty that God does not exist. This puts the burden of proof on you.
(July 18, 2015 at 2:40 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: (July 17, 2015 at 1:07 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The Lord is sovereign and has no moral obligation to all His Creation. To question His authority represents an arrogant attempt to elevate yourself to His equal. (Romans 9:19-21) Do you consider yourself His equal that you could judge him? (see Job 39) No one has any claim on the Creator and yet the Judeo-Christian God is one of both Justice and Mercy. (Psalms 50:6, Rev. 15:3-4)
Human rights are the natural consequence of both His Lordship and Righteousness. Because Man was made in His image (Gen. 1:27), we were created to act justly towards one another like He is (Matthew 5:48, Lev 19:2). By rational demonstration, Aquinas shows human rights as "what is due to each", i.e. justice.
Your god does not exist. I am not his equal, I am infinitely superior to him, because I have the perfection of existence, to quote one of your dusty old saints.
To claim "your God does not exist". Claims that you know with absolute certainty that God does not exist. This puts the burden of proof on you.
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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