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SteelCurtain · July 23, 2015 at 9:58 am

(July 23, 2015 at 9:33 am)pocaracas Wrote: If *only* 75% of what he writes is flamming, then we can get to him by just using a warning... maybe he'll turn around to the right side of the force.

(July 23, 2015 at 9:46 am)omnomnom Wrote:
(July 23, 2015 at 9:32 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: Okay, omnom, let's break this down into brass tacks:

1) In what way is providing a cake for a gay couple's wedding an action that endorses that wedding?
2) Should any store owner be able to restrict what you do with an item they sold you after they sold it to you?
About #1: Doing that is basically me passively condoning gay marriage *to my conscience* and possibly even to the public. I have lived in India for at least 13 years and we don't do this new gay thing. How the fuck am I supposed to live and get a better reincarnation if peer pressuring assholes force me to go against my conscience? My religious beliefs and Liberty of Conscience are equally needed to be considered too you know. Man, why do people have to lawsuit me like "Klein Bakery Case" some time back over a simple religious conscience ordeal?

First off, it wasn't a lawsuit. The couple simply filed a complaint to the Oregon DOJ. The state agency awarded damages because the Klein's made in into a personal war. The fact remains, and this is one you are refusing to acknowledge, (I am treating you like you're not a Poe here, when we both know you are) that discriminating based on sexual orientation was and is against the law in the State of Oregon. So if you open a business in Oregon and have a closely held belief that you won't provide services for a certain class of people, then you are subject to penalties. The Klein's made that choice, and they were liable. The fine was a little more than a third of the fine given to a Christian ($325k) who was discriminated by a business under the auspices of the same law.

Once again, I'll ask a question: If it was against a person's "conscience" to serve black people in their restaurant, should they be able to say "no colored people allowed?"

(July 23, 2015 at 9:46 am)omnomnom Wrote: About #2:
Dude, they can do whatever the fuck they want a sold cake. But beforehand, If they ask me "Can you give me one for a wedding?" I say "no way". If I ignorantly gave a cake assuming it was a straight wedding and it turned out not be one its OK to my conscience because I did it ignorantly.

Understand that not every theist doesn't go around hating gays like a bunch of Christian assholes do. I don't care about this whole " fundamentalist vs gay war", and I don't hate gays either and I've said that in this thread millions of times.

I do understand that not every theist discriminates against gay people. But when theists do and say hateful things, I'll reserve the right to call it such. You enter into the public sphere and do business in America, where we have anti-discrimination laws, and you agree to abide by those laws.

**Iroscato** · July 23, 2015 at 10:00 am

(July 23, 2015 at 9:51 am)omnomnom Wrote:
(July 23, 2015 at 9:40 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: I'm looking forward to the day when you are refused service because of your faith, and have another tantrum, this time about how you should be able to receive service no matter your personal beliefs.
Go ahead with your anti-Buddhist store. I don't fucking care. I'm not obcessed with your liberal war against Christians and Muslims every other Theist. But karma will get you for your bigotry, and it will get you hard as hell for your fucking intolerance just like it got some of the intolerant Christians and Muslims.

And I will savor that day when your discriminatory liberal bigot self-righteous hypocrite ass gets hooked in pain.

Not obsessed, but you make a ranting thread about it by way of introduction on this forum, then engage in internet fisticuffs with every single motherfucker who disagrees with you. If you're not obsessed, then I'm also a buddhist (hint, I'm not).

~~omnomnom~~ · July 23, 2015 at 10:00 am

(July 23, 2015 at 7:46 am)Rahul Wrote:
(July 23, 2015 at 12:36 am)omnomnom Wrote: Read my post, you know I'm discriminating against anybody, I'm no homophobe. I have gay friends whom I cherish and none of them hate me and call me a homophobe simply because I disagree with their lifestyle. Just let me run my bakery without having to give *wedding* cakes to gay marriages and consensual bestial marriages.

Equating homosexual marriage to bestiality is nothing more than an insult. It really doesn't frame you as anything other than a hateful person. But maybe that's the image you are going for. Each to their own.

As an owner of a business that offers certain services you are not there to pass moral judgment on your patrons but to offer those services. To withhold the same service from some people that you provide to other people that meet your moral standards is discrimination. Whether or not you personally think so. The law is pretty clear. Homosexual marriage is now legal throughout the US. You do not have the right to decide which law abiding citizens can obtain which of your products. No more than my step daughter's principal can decide which gender could be on the school's football team.

In my eyes anything except traditional marriage is immoral and I have the right to believe what I want you Marxist asshole and you KNOW I'm not being a discriminatory fundamentalist. *You don't fucking tell me what to believe*. Don't Impose your shit into me or I swear I'll pray to karma to burn your bigoted ass for all the pain and suffering that I get.

My job is to do what is RIGHT and MORAL ultimately. And if that means refusing wedding cakes, its your fault that you're just a butthurt asshole thats threatening me to go against my beliefs on pain of business failure.

Thumpalumpacus · July 23, 2015 at 10:02 am

(July 22, 2015 at 11:10 pm)Dystopia Wrote: TL;DR - Let the hateful people expose themselves and boycott them - You don't need a law to force them to do business with you - Just like it is more desirable for bigots to expose themselves with free speech rather than seeing them facing censorship - How is this any better (ethically) than a hate speech law? the only difference is that in the latter you are not allowed to do or say something, while in the former you are forced to do something

The state has a vested interest in ensuring equality of opportunity. When the majority in a given area are bigots, the minority has no recourse. Martin Luther King's non-violent approach to changing the radical racism of the South only worked because the government realized that left to their own devices, bigots were not going to respond to boycotts by a small proportion of society.

While I agree that in government, smaller is generally better, the negative impact of doing nothing in the face of bigotry in public accommodations far outweighs the positives of remaining true to ideology. People are more important than principles.

Cato · July 23, 2015 at 10:04 am

(July 23, 2015 at 10:00 am)omnomnom Wrote: In my eyes anything except traditional marriage is immoral and I have the right to believe what I want you Marxist asshole and you KNOW I'm not being a discriminatory fundamentalist. *You don't fucking tell me what to believe*. Don't Impose your shit into me or I swear I'll pray to karma to burn your bigoted ass for all the pain and suffering that I get.

My job is to do what is RIGHT and MORAL ultimately. And if that means refusing wedding cakes, its your fault that you're just a butthurt asshole thats threatening me to go against my beliefs on pain of business failure.

I think I just heard your mother calling you to lunch to enjoy your jelly sandwich with the crust cut off.

**rexbeccarox** · July 23, 2015 at 10:06 am

I'm going to keep reposting this until I get a clear answer.

(July 23, 2015 at 9:37 am)rexbeccarox Wrote:
(July 23, 2015 at 9:24 am)omnomnom Wrote: Thanx you look like someone who's actually trying to understand what's going on.

No, I won't ask them "are you gay?" Gays can have cakes ANY CAKE they wanting my store. Birthday cakes, party cakes, whatever cakes BUT I'm just saying NO to the **WEDDING** cakes since I will violate my sexual conscience and beliefs big time for it by making it. (Probably pay for it in next rebirth too). Understand that it's not discrimination but my right to not condone it. I have fucking gay friends that are totally OK with my "we agree to disagree so don't expect a wedding cake" stance.

You didn't answer my question: what if a man walked into your shop by himself and ordered a wedding cake? How would you know whether he was gay or straight? Are you going to refuse him service because he's possibly gay? Are you going to ask him about his sexual orientation?

~~omnomnom~~ · July 23, 2015 at 10:07 am

(July 23, 2015 at 9:58 am)SteelCurtain Wrote:
(July 23, 2015 at 9:33 am)pocaracas Wrote: If *only* 75% of what he writes is flamming, then we can get to him by just using a warning... maybe he'll turn around to the right side of the force.

(July 23, 2015 at 9:46 am)omnomnom Wrote: About #1: Doing that is basically me passively condoning gay marriage *to my conscience* and possibly even to the public. I have lived in India for at least 13 years and we don't do this new gay thing. How the fuck am I supposed to live and get a better reincarnation if peer pressuring assholes force me to go against my conscience? My religious beliefs and Liberty of Conscience are equally needed to be considered too you know. Man, why do people have to lawsuit me like "Klein Bakery Case" some time back over a simple religious conscience ordeal?
First off, it wasn't a lawsuit. The couple simply filed a complaint to the Oregon DOJ. The state agency awarded damages because the Klein's made in into a personal war. The fact remains, and this is one you are refusing to acknowledge, (I am treating you like you're not a Poe here, when we both know you are) that discriminating based on sexual orientation was and is against the law in the State of Oregon. So if you open a business in Oregon and have a closely held belief that you won't provide services for a certain class of people, then you are subject to penalties. The Klein's made that choice, and they were liable. The fine was a little more than a third of the fine given to a Christian ($325k) who was discriminated by a business under the auspices of the same law.

Once again, I'll ask a question: If it was against a person's "conscience" to serve black people in their restaurant, should they be able to say "no colored people allowed?"

(July 23, 2015 at 9:46 am)omnomnom Wrote: About #2:
Dude, they can do whatever the fuck they want a sold cake. But beforehand, If they ask me "Can you give me one for a wedding?" I say "no way". If I ignorantly gave a cake assuming it was a straight wedding and it turned out not be one its OK to my conscience because I did it ignorantly.

Understand that not every theist doesn't go around hating gays like a bunch of Christian assholes do. I don't care about this whole " fundamentalist vs gay war", and I don't hate gays either and I've said that in this thread millions of times.

I do understand that not every theist discriminates against gay people. But when theists do and say hateful things, I'll reserve the right to call it such. You enter into the public sphere and do business in America, where we have anti-discrimination laws, and you agree to abide by those laws.

Whoa. Your twisting this thing. I'm raised in a country where gay-sex is looked down upon and that has developed into my conscience. Its my honest conscience that it's fucking wrong to fuck same gender. But that whole "I think its wrong to serve blacks" is a cheap excuse for racism. And this deal isn't even about serving gays, its about serving gay *wedding* cakes.

Longhorn · July 23, 2015 at 10:10 am

(July 23, 2015 at 10:00 am)omnomnom Wrote: Don't Impose your shit into me or I swear I'll pray to karma to burn your bigoted ass for all the pain and suffering that I get.

Uh oh. Exaggerating ego tripper alert.

~~omnomnom~~ · (This post was last modified: July 23, 2015 at 10:14 am by omnomnom.)

(July 23, 2015 at 9:37 am)rexbeccarox Wrote:
(July 23, 2015 at 9:24 am)omnomnom Wrote: Thanx you look like someone who's actually trying to understand what's going on.

No, I won't ask them "are you gay?" Gays can have cakes ANY CAKE they wanting my store. Birthday cakes, party cakes, whatever cakes BUT I'm just saying NO to the **WEDDING** cakes since I will violate my sexual conscience and beliefs big time for it by making it. (Probably pay for it in next rebirth too). Understand that it's not discrimination but my right to not condone it. I have fucking gay friends that are totally OK with my "we agree to disagree so don't expect a wedding cake" stance.

You didn't answer my question: what if a man walked into your shop by himself and ordered a wedding cake? How would you know whether he was gay or straight? Are you going to refuse him service because he's possibly gay? Are you going to ask him about his sexual orientation?

No. I'm not going to ask him his sexual orientation. I'm going to ask "what's the wedding cake for?" Orientation irrelevant, the *wedding type* IS. As long as I sell the wedding cake ignorantly its fine with my conscience.

**rexbeccarox** · July 23, 2015 at 10:14 am

(July 23, 2015 at 10:10 am)omnomnom Wrote:
(July 23, 2015 at 9:37 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: You didn't answer my question: what if a man walked into your shop by himself and ordered a wedding cake? How would you know whether he was gay or straight? Are you going to refuse him service because he's possibly gay? Are you going to ask him about his sexual orientation?
No. I'm not going to ask him his sexual orientation. As long as I sell the wedding cake ignorantly its fine with my conscience.

You don't see how that's juvenile?

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