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On Defining Atheism: An Essay
#11
RE: On Defining Atheism: An Essay
(August 20, 2015 at 2:22 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand. Could you please repeat that, or repeat it in another way? I'm kind of slow so you may have to do this over and over and over.

I think he's engaged in a very long-winded attempt to ultimately get to this statement:

"Atheism is the belief that God does not exist."


To me it appears he's trying to define atheism in such a way that he can then shift the burden of proof back onto atheists -- you're not alllowed to be an agnostic atheist because people wear shorts. Or something like that.

I'd like to point out the flaws in his reasoning about the definition of atheism, but I fear I'd come across as hypocritical since I'm wearing a pair of shorts as I type this.
Sporadic poster
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#12
RE: On Defining Atheism: An Essay
When I saw that the first word was "Pants," I ran away fast
How will we know, when the morning comes, we are still human? - 2D

Don't worry, my friend.  If this be the end, then so shall it be.
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#13
RE: On Defining Atheism: An Essay
What's up these last few days? Does anyone know of a massive breakout from an asylum?
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
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#14
RE: On Defining Atheism: An Essay
(August 20, 2015 at 2:33 pm)TRJF Wrote: When I saw that the first word was "Pants," I ran away fast
Don't pants please you greatly?
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot

We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
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#15
RE: On Defining Atheism: An Essay
(August 20, 2015 at 2:33 pm)Javaman Wrote:
(August 20, 2015 at 2:22 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand. Could you please repeat that, or repeat it in another way? I'm kind of slow so you may have to do this over and over and over.

I think he's engaged in a very long-winded attempt to ultimately get to this statement:

"Atheism is the belief that God does not exist."


To me it appears he's trying to define atheism in such a way that he can then shift the burden of proof back onto atheists -- you're not alllowed to be an agnostic atheist because people wear shorts. Or something like that.

I'd like to point out the flaws in his reasoning about the definition of atheism, but I fear I'd come across as hypocritical since I'm wearing a pair of shorts as I type this.
Thanks but I think I need to hear it from it. It will just accuse you of not understanding.

Patiently awaiting enlightenment from it.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#16
RE: On Defining Atheism: An Essay
(August 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Manalive Wrote:

Atheism lately has been defined as simply a lack of belief in a thing called God.

Yes, that would be the definition.

(August 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Manalive Wrote: How they arrive at this conclusion is not difficult to understand. The term theism is understood as belief in a thing called God. The prefix a- negates the content of the term succeeding it. In our case, this term is theism. Therefore, we end up with atheism, a lack of belief in a thing called God.

Yes, a simple useful term.

(August 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Manalive Wrote: Simple magic explained simply.
  But this definition is a terrible tangle of terms, almost a flat out contradiction. To understand the deficiency of this definition of atheism, we must understand the purpose of definitions. Definitions, as the Latin suggests, set limits around a given word or phrase or idea. When we define a term, we say of the term, “This far, and no further.” In a sense, definitions keep words finite.

It is a finite definition.  It describes everyone who does not have a belief in god.   That includes people who have a positive belief that there is no god or gods.  Such people are gnostic or strong atheists.  It also includes people who are uncertain whether there is a god or gods or simply cannot rule out the possibility of a god or gods.  Such people are
agnostic or weak atheists.  Thus positive denial of god or simple lack of belief (this far) but not belief (no further).

(August 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Manalive Wrote: Suppose you and I were perusing a field of grass in front of an average middle-class house. I take a large stick and begin to draw lines around you and myself. When I finish and wipe the sweat off my beaten brow, I gaze at you with smiling lips and eyes, announcing, “This is my front yard.” In doing so, I have set limits to what is and is not my front yard. Conveniently, I have drawn you, my neighbor, outside of my front lawn. That is precisely what makes you my neighbor: my front lawn is not your front lawn, though you are more than welcome to drop by and watch my crocuses bloom in the springtime.
  Such is the teleology of definitions to set limits, to say of a thing that it cannot extent beyond the boundaries which it was given. What of this notion of atheism, then? In defining atheism we have set out to establish its character, to say what it is, and in saying what it is, learn what it is not.

You are needlessly tripping over language and concepts.  In defining your yard, you define everything else as not your yard.  There is no word for not your yard, but the concept exists and it's useful.  Mine and not mine is necessary knowledge with which to navigate the world.  

(August 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Manalive Wrote: However, if atheism is defined as a lack of belief in a thing called God, we have abandoned our initial task to define atheism. We have said what it is not, and in saying what it is not, have learned nothing about what it is. In essence, we have said nothing worth saying.

No, you just defined atheism.  I think I see your conceptual problem though.  You expect to learn something about atheism or atheists from the definition of the word.  You are expecting to find a philosophy contained in the definition.  There isn't because atheism is not a philosophy, it's a state of being:  the state of not believing in a god or gods.

(August 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Manalive Wrote:   The negation of theism, I should add, is not something easily dealt with. It can be understood in a couple of ways. A- could mean “no” or it could mean “not.” Both glosses suggest denial, but they suggest different kinds of denial. The former gloss could refer to an amount of something: there is no milk in the fridge, there is no cheese in the pantry, there are no females in my philosophy class. The latter gloss could refer to an absence in terms of existence or traceable presence: Susan was not at the party last night, I was not in the bank when it was robbed, Karen is not at Emily’s house. The difference is subtle, but it is in fact different. Attaching the prefix a- to theism leaves us with categories like these, only one category of which I believe is worthy to be called atheism. This category is the latter one.
  In saying the latter category is most fit for the term atheism, I am saying this. What is being negated in the term theism is not the belief in a thing called God but God Himself.

Sorry but no.  The word you need here isn't "no" or "not,"  it's "without."  Like amoral is different from immoral.  Atheist is different from against god.  

(August 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Manalive Wrote: Atheism, then, is actually something; it can finally be defined. If it is not the belief itself that is being negated but the object of this belief, and God is the object of this belief, then we are left with a functioning definition of atheism. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. It is a proposition-affirming stance on the nature of God, namely that He does not exist. It becomes a proposition-denying stance on the nature of God when a theist asserts that God exists. Theism and atheism rely on propositions, and propositions can either be affirmed or denied. Whether God exists or not is the proposition to determine, not the unusual yet commonly accepted stance whether one has or has not a belief in God.

Sorry but no, very few atheists are strong atheists.  And those of us who simply do not believe in a god or gods will not vanish is a puff of definition, if you try to define atheism as the belief that god does not exist.

(August 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Manalive Wrote:   The reader may have realized at this point that I have not bothered defining some terms. Among these terms lay God and belief. I have not thought it a very pressing matter to define these terms because, quite frankly, they are impractical. There are nuances I wished to avoid about each term, namely what kind of God, whether this God is like other gods, belief that or belief in, whether belief is the same thing as knowing. I have also avoided discussing agnosticism because it is quite different from atheism being an epistemological stance. But agnosticism, atheism, and theism, like any other belief, are indeed stances. This is precisely what I have been contesting in this essay: atheism is indeed a stance on the existence of God. If we must so put it, atheism is reactionary in the sense that denies what the theist affirms. This is not a lack of anything on the part of the atheist; it is really quite the opposite. The atheist has as much a claim to buttress as the theist, because he makes a claim about the existence of God.

There is insufficient evidence of any god at present.  That's my stance.  It's my stance on unicorns, esp, and ghosts.  It isn't necessary to prove the lack of unicorns or god.  Should such things exist, then there will proof of them.  Until then I operate on the assumption that there aren't, while allowing for the remote possibility that evidence of their existence my surface.

(August 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Manalive Wrote:   To define atheism as a lack of belief is no definition at all. It is like a waiter asking you what you would like to eat from the menu, and you reply, “Certainly not the smoked salmon!”

You are missing the food for the entrees:  atheism is much more like responding, "I'm not hungry."  

(August 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Manalive Wrote: It is a terribly impractical answer to begin with what is missing rather than what is already there. No more absurd would it be if a theist was simply one who lacked belief in the non-existence of God. The formula “lacks belief in X” is a faulty first principle; it would make for a decent derivative, but not a substantial starting point. No tailor said of their designs, “I began with what I did not want and ended where I always wanted to be.” He would be an impractical tailor. No atheist ought ever to say, “I began with what I did not have and discovered what I could have.” He would be a preposterous atheist.

You vastly over complicate the world by assuming that lack of knowledge is not a possibility.  You've gotten the pants you like so much in a twist over the possibility that there can only be pants or shorts without considering the possibility of nudity.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#17
RE: On Defining Atheism: An Essay
(August 20, 2015 at 2:33 pm)TRJF Wrote: When I saw that the first word was "Pants," I ran away fast

I tend to nickname my pets. It started with Rowdy Waggy Pants (my roommate's dog), and has been reduced to, you guessed it: Pants.

This is a photo of Pants and her friend Baby Bo (or BoboButt or Kung Pao Kitty, which is mostly a threat for when she gets bitchy and mean).

[Image: IMG_1135.jpg]
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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#18
RE: On Defining Atheism: An Essay
Quote:To define atheism as a lack of belief is no definition at all.

Nonetheless, that is what it is, whether you like it or not.

I suggest you learn to deal with it and move on with your life.
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#19
RE: On Defining Atheism: An Essay
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Regardless of how "atheism" is defined, my stance on the various gods is still the same, and you still remain unable to present any evidence for any of them.

Feel free to keep arguing trivial points, though.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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#20
RE: On Defining Atheism: An Essay
Quote:I take a large stick and begin to draw lines around you and myself. When I finish and wipe the sweat off my beaten brow, I gaze at you with smiling lips and eyes, announcing, “This is my front yard.” In doing so, I have set limits to what is and is not my front yard. Conveniently, I have drawn you, my neighbor, outside of my front lawn. That is precisely what makes you my neighbor: my front lawn is not your front lawn, though you are more than welcome to drop by and watch my crocuses bloom in the springtime.

What makes your neighbor your neighbor?

"Oh, well, you see, they aren't me and they don't live in my yard."
I can't remember where this verse is from, I think it got removed from canon:

"I don't hang around with mostly men because I'm gay. It's because men are better than women. Better trained, better equipped...better. Just better! I'm not gay."

For context, this is the previous verse:

"Hi Jesus" -robvalue
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