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I have always known.
#1
I have always known.
So like many people of this country i was brought up in a christian house hold. Southern methodist to be exact. I was raised by my grandparents who were both born in 1927. They were not as staunchly religious as you would think, though. However, it was required of me to, like it or not, go to church on sunday. It was more of their way of getting my lazy ass out of bed on that day and adding structure to my life than it was about actual indoctrination. My grandfather was involved in the church that we went to from their beginning. He went to school for accounting so he did some book keeping for them in his spare time for no charge. He also donated very generously quite often. He felt an obligation to give back to his community. Later i was to find out it's because he was a terrible human being earlier in his life and felt he had to make amends for it. I also later discovered that he's actually quite agnostic in his personal beliefs and felt the bible was "full of sh*t". He eventually got fed up with church politics and removed us from there all together. I was just thrilled i didn't have to attend anymore. However from a very early age i can remember calling bs on all the fairy tales my family told me. Santa, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy, the boogie man etc etc and that even included god and jesus. I remember driving my family nuts because they kept insisting that all these things existed and were true. While i absolutely insisted that there was no way possible that they did. I just knew in the bottom of my heart that these things were just made up for entertainment. I just knew there was no god. I just knew that the bible was made up. I just knew there was no heaven or hell or after life. I used to have dreams at a very young age of a black wall of nothingness moving slowly towards me. I would awake in panic knowing that wall was death and that i was helpless to stop it. From a very young age i knew i had to make the most of my time on this rock before i get planted in it. 

Later in life i returned to that church from my childhood. I was 17 and a senior in highschool. I went because my friends went and i wanted to fit in. I felt out of place and i think the church goers could see it on my face and never really accepted me. Whenever we would attend the youth group sessions it felt so wrong. It felt like i was being brainwashed by a cult. When interacting with the other teenagers things just never lined up. They would be talking about the teachings of jesus yet friday and saturday night they were partying. Drinking alcohol, taking drugs, having sex etc etc. One of the girls was even having sex with one of the youth ministers. I came to see it as some screwed up, twisted singles club. Where if you loved jesus you got laid. Eventually i got fed up with it and stopped going. Which would be the last time i ever willingly stepped foot into a church. 

Anyways just a brief history of my experiences with church and religion. I never fully accepted "jesus into my heart" so i guess i can't say i was converted. However i did move away from the church very quickly.
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#2
RE: I have always known.
Thanks for sharing your story Smile Well done on seeing their the shit from the start.

I was never indoctrinated, so I often wonder how I would have reacted. Would I have been saying, "This is shit mum, shut up!" Or would I have just accepted it? I'll never know.
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#3
RE: I have always known.
I wish that had been my experience. I did have a lot of hard questions that my Christian Apologist training didn't cover very well, but I got pretty good at cognitive dissonance for a while, until the pressure of keeping one side of my brain from saying "WTF, DUDE!?" to the other side got to be too much (at 16-17, when we started getting a series of anti-evolution/anti-science evangelists guest-preaching at our church, and I had read enough books to start spotting outright lies, despite being a Creationist, myself). But up until that point, I was "on fire for Jesus", as we said in the cult, back then.

Looking back on it, it just blows me away that I ever thought or behaved in those ways. Our church wasn't (quite) as hypocritical as yours seemed to be. Mine was composed of pretty hard-core Believers, as far as I could tell. We had our share of hypocrites, but everyone knew them as hypocrites, and I think that most of the members were overall pretty good, normal, decent people... just had a lot of crazy cult notions about the world, that's all. It is possible that there was more drinking/screwing going on than I personally saw, since by the time I was old enough to participate in that, I was focused on trying to get into the AF Academy, studying AP Chemistry/Physics/Calculus, and running track, doing techie work with the nearby university theatre, and also attending church every Wednesday night and twice on Sunday, so I didn't have much time for shenanigans or socializing outside of church.

Luckily, once the dissonance dissipated, the powerful anti-apologetics weapon my church had taught me to focus on other religions (as a means of debunking the other, "wrong" faiths, from Mormonism to Catholicism to Islam, etc.) was able to dispatch my own beliefs "in a puff of logic", as Douglas Adams put it.

That was at age 17, and when I admitted to my parents I could not longer in good faith attend their church, it went badly. They told me to go or move out. I chose the latter. I didn't really consider myself a nonbeliever, yet; I just knew that the version of Christianity that I had been taught (fundamentalist, with strict Biblical literalism) was dead-wrong, and wanted to see if I could find a faith that wasn't clearly bullshit. There were none, of course.

Six months after that, during the oath-taking ceremonies at the Academy (my hard work paid off!), I chose not to say "so help me God" at the end of my oaths, since they gave us the option. Looking back, that was my first real step toward self-identifying as a nonbeliever, but I consider the start of my atheism to be the moment I realized the Bible could not be what my fellows claimed it was, the literal Word of God, was the moment skepticism lit up my brain, and I have not looked back in regret for a moment. I do, however, regret what my parents' continued extremism did to my siblings in my absence, an abandonment for which they have never really forgiven me, even though they have also abandoned religion completely. Sad

It was another five years after leaving my childhood home, during a conversation with my debate team partner (also college girlfriend), that I first used the term "atheist" openly, realizing for myself what I really was. And now I tell Christians who ask if I'd like to hear the Good News, "No, thanks! I'm a recovering Christoholic...22 years Jesus free!"
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost

I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.

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#4
RE: I have always known.
Quote:Where if you loved jesus you got laid.

That would make it worthwhile.  Otherwise...its just a pile of shit.
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#5
RE: I have always known.
I love reading all these stories from you converts. Gives me a little hope for the human race.

But yeah gettin laid at church is the new bait they put out there. If they can attract young sexy women to the establishment it will help spread the word of god. It's the most simple of advertising. But it's done by word of mouth and they do everything they can to keep it hush hush.
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#6
RE: I have always known.
(September 7, 2015 at 9:02 pm)brian1570 Wrote: If they can attract young sexy women

it's done by word of mouth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDqsgbtpDLk
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost

I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.

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#7
RE: I have always known.
Rocket: Thanks for sharing your story Smile I find it utterly disgusting your parents would throw you out just for not pandering to their delusions. When I tell people in England that some American parents do things like this, they are thoroughly shocked. They usually think I'm joking to begin with.

I understand you feeling guilty about your siblings. I really don't know if you'd have been able to do much even if you had stayed though. Since religious nonsense is one of those forms of passive abuse that is socially acceptable (like over-feeding your kid or smoking all over them) it's not something that can easily be stopped unless it becomes actual bodily harm.

How are your siblings now?
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

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#8
RE: I have always known.
(September 8, 2015 at 2:31 am)robvalue Wrote: I understand you feeling guilty about your siblings. I really don't know if you'd have been able to do much even if you had stayed though. Since religious nonsense is one of those forms of passive abuse that is socially acceptable (like over-feeding your kid or smoking all over them) it's not something that can easily be stopped unless it becomes actual bodily harm.

How are your siblings now?

The three of us have all, individually, patched things up with the folks, mainly because the folks have realized they will lose us again the moment they start talking crazy. My parents are both intelligent people; dad is a Nuclear/Chemical Engineer with a Master's in Process Engineering, and mom is a PhD in speech/theatre, who is a professor at LSU. They just manage to have astounding levels of cognitive dissonance by blocking out anything that doesn't comport with their present religious beliefs. My fiancee, a Christian but one who is also an evolutionary biologist/biochemist, is able to sucker my dad into conversations about Atomic Theory that would force him to admit the world is more than 6000 years old in a way I cannot because he has learned to be wary of me, but she is just so charming that he doesn't get the defenses up in time. It's adorable to watch her run him into the conclusions of logic, smirking in a way only I recognize, and then "hear" his fuses pop to prevent the dissonant parts of his brain from communicating when bridged.

My siblings and I don't really speak to one another much, except at family reunions, as we all have gone off in different directions and made our own lives. When I do speak to them, they are like strangers, even though the initial abandonment is no longer brought up. My sister is a Pagan/Wiccan, but married to a hardcore fundamentalist Christian who is highly active in the church (I always see photos of him leading various types of worship songs/performances), so I think she fakes Christianity for him. I've never pressed her on this point. Things are tentative enough as it is! It does make me very sad that my siblings and I have drifted apart, but I don't really see a way to repair it, at this stage of our lives. About the only thing we all agree on is that fundies are nuts. Luckily, my brother and his wife have a kid almost exactly my son's age, so I get to spend time with my nephew a lot when I visit, since they're just glad to have someone who'll watch the kid, and I don't mind taking both boys.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost

I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.

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#9
RE: I have always known.
An addendum I feel necessary: My brother (who describes himself as an "Ijustdontgiveafuckist") is married to an Iraq war veteran who is an ardent atheist. Unfortunately, she is also a judge's daughter, and hates my guts because of my conviction. I had hoped that its overturn would soften her outlook toward me, but it only seems to have hardened, or at least I am still "suspect", and she has voiced concerns to my fiancee (when I was not around) that I will try to push drugs on her son, use them around him, etc. She won't speak to me at all, even when I try talking to her face-to-face. She might be an atheist, but she is a "True Believer™" when it comes to the justice system. Even allowing me around my nephew took some harsh insistence on my brother's part, at great personal cost to him, which I regret as much as the gap between us. If not for what I know it would do to my nephew, a really sweet kid, I would wish for the two of them to divorce. Likewise, my sister's husband is a veteran, but a hardcore fundie, which I think has a lot to do with why he doesn't like for her to be around either of her non-believing siblings.

I just don't understand people, and I hate what religion does to them. Sad
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost

I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.

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#10
RE: I have always known.
It is terrible, families are tough enough without religion throwing a fuck-off sized spanner in the works. My family is seriously dysfunctional, but for different reasons. I know how you feel, I've drifted apart from my brothers too.

It sounds to me like you've done your best and that's all anyone can do.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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