Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 3:11 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
I always assumed there would be evidence.
#1
I always assumed there would be evidence.
I'll warn you in advance, this is going to be long-winded. There was no single turning point that led me to the atheist conclusion, however the fundamental seeds were present from the beginning. I was never exactly converted to atheism, so much as I discovered myself to be an atheist through a process of study.

In the beginning, once I'd managed to develop speech and curiosity enough to make inquiries about the world around me, my only source for information was my parents and extended family. Somewhere around the age of 2 or 3, I simply assumed that the word an adult family member was incontrovertible truth. Being a child, my questions were stupid and perhaps even cliché. But even at this early age I found that I was getting conflicting answers.

"Why is the sky blue?" I remember asking my grandmother.
"Because God made it blue," came her reply.

Even as a toddler, I found this to be a dissatisfying answer. At best it answered WHO made it blue, and it didn't explain anything about WHY or HOW. I asked my father, and his answer was quite different. He explained that air isn't just emptiness, but that it is made of stuff. And that's why you can feel the wind. And while it is not something that has much effect on light in small quantites, in large quantites it can bend light a little. And because blue light refracts better than red or green, the sky takes on a blue tint.

I didn't fully understand the answer, but I could at least take away that air makes the sky blue. I liked this kind of answer. It was possible to understand why things are. Of course this raised another question.

"Grandma says God made it that way," I had conflicting answers, and I needed to cover my bases.
"That's because she doesn't know why the sky is blue," my father answered.

It was the first time I had to face the idea that my grandmother didn't know everything. My hypothesis that adults knew everything went right down the tubes. 'God' could be used as shorthand for 'I don't know'.

I was raised in the Mormon church, and of course all of my family was some kind of Christian or another. Everybody at least seemed to agree on this Jesus guy. So there must be something to that, right? Evidently, he came back from the grave, and by all accounts he's a real swell bloke. And we'd go spend 3 hours every Sunday talking about Jesus, and singing songs about god, and learning the lessons he passed down to us. Around the age of 6, I decided that I'd quite like to meet this Jesus that everyone else seems to know so well. I mean, this guy is so cool that just talking about him is enough to make grown adults burst into tears in public. He's like Mega Elvis, or the Beatles or something. I asked when we'd actually get to meet this guy. Singing songs and keeping his house warm on Sunday is all nice and good, but after spending a few hundred Sundays on this church business, I've still never even seen the guy. They'd chuckle to themselves, "you'll meet him one day if you're really good." I didn't get it then, but that was a kindhearted joke about me dying someday. I really had no concept of mortality, so I didn't understand why Jesus was so important to these people. It didn't seem fair that I had to show up to church every Sunday, and he didn't.

A few more years pass, and I'm 8. Church every Sunday, and I'm starting to realize that all of these people are claiming to have this relationship with god. They talk to him and he talks back and he makes miracles happen. They feel the spirit move them when they sit in those hard wooden pews in their Sunday finest. Not for lack of trying on my part, but I never felt that. At first I assumed that I was just too young to bother god, but as time went on, his absence became more and more disconcerting. I had a picture in my head that god was stopping by at these people's houses for biscuits and jam every few years, but it became clear to me that this wasn't happening at all.

It dawned on me that the only evidence ever offered of his existence are ancient documents whose origin could not be verified. How do you know the bible is true? Because god says so. When did god say that? In the bible. What if the bible is lying, and god never said that at all? That's not possible, because the bible is the word of god. Not one piece of solid concrete evidence!?! He performs miracles every day. Show me one! Don't tempt the lord, that's blasphemy.

Those conversations always ended badly. I learned to stop asking questions in church. But the questions never went away. I knew enough then (mid 1980s) to know not to trust textbooks from the 1950s because they tended to be wrong. I knew that anything from before the 1900 tended to be laughably hilarious. But I was expected to place my faith that some author of uncertain identity from 2000 years ago was the keeper of the mysteries of life and death? Being a Mormon at a young age means being surrounded by additional mysteries. A mystery is just a question. I didn't want questions, I wanted answers.

I continued to go to church until the age of 14, which, for whatever reason, was the age that my mother had decided was the age of reason. You're old enough that you don't have to keep going to church if you don't want to. "See you when you get back, mom."

My involvement with Mormonism ended in a moment. It had occurred to me that I hadn't given religion a fair shake, so around the age of 15, when my mother remarried, I went with them to the Lutheran church. It was different than what I had experienced before, and thankfully a much shorter service. But it was also the same. I'd sit in the pews, waiting for the time to pass. Listening intently for some message that would reveal the true nature of god to me. I avoided asking questions, but I also started avoiding answering questions. I knew that none of these people had any real answers either. One day the youth were asked if we were sheep of the flock. I couldn't bring myself to say yes. "Absolutely not. Sheep stink, and are easily led, and aren't very bright. I am an intelligent human. Surely god didn't give us free will so that we could relinquish it?"

I stopped going to that church as well. I still felt that I hadn't done due diligence. If there was a way to god, I was going to find it. I was waiting for some ordained and anointed power broker to build a bridge to god for me, but I never really dug in and tried to build it for myself. So I picked up the bible and started at Genesis, and finished it off in about two weeks. It was not what I expected. I found myself thinking, 'This was what I've been following for my entire life?' Women are demeaned and subjugated on the first page, Judas dies 2 different ways, and god seems to be down with a lot more killing than I'd been led to believe. He's got a problem with poly-cotton blends and pigs and shellfish and just about everything else. For an infallible work, the bible was riddled with holes that no amount of semantics could mend.

Well, no wonder I couldn't find god. He clearly isn't Christian. I'll have to cast a wider net. I set out to learn everything I could about every religion I could find; Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Satanism, Sikhism, new age-y mysticism, the unincorporated occult, Baha'i, Wicca, Zoroastrianism... I even gave Omnitheism a go. It got downright silly.

No matter how hard I looked everything had some fundamental flaw that ruled it out. I stopped looking, but hadn't ruled out the existence of god or an afterlife. At the same time, I was becoming less sure that I'd find one.

After I turned 21, I met a girl who was a reeferhead, and become one myself for a brief period. I read the NIV bible, and filtered through the haze of much ganja, I started selecting passages that I liked with the excuse that the old testament was invalidated by the new testament. That the One Commandment 'love one another' superseded all other commandments and laws, and not to worry about the rest of it. I tried for about two years to engage Jesus on a sort of peace and love hippy savior level. I cast god as the cruel hot headed jerk, and jesus as the defense attorney. But it never really stuck. The last vestiges of my willingness to lie to myself about what I believe faded away around the age of 23 - 11 years ago. I knew I could stop looking, because if there was a god, I'd have caught him by now. Why would god create me to be incapable of faith, and then demand it of me?

That's when it clicked. Faith is not a virtue. Faith is the suppression of inquiry. Why do all religions demand faith? Because honest inquiry is corrosive to religion. If you peer too deeply, there are no answers in religion. It becomes obvious that religion is a manmade construct designed to exert moral control over and pacify the populace. I'm not saying it's all bad, I learned some good things from my time in church. And I'm not out to convert anyone. I came to it on my own, in spite of the efforts of everyone around me. I suspect that the harm caused by religion outweighs the good.


When I was small child, I asked my grandmother "What happens when you die?"
"You go to live with God", she answered

That's because she doesn't know what happens when you die.

- Sancho Rodriguez
Reply
#2
RE: I always assumed there would be evidence.
Welcome aboard.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#3
RE: I always assumed there would be evidence.
Welcome.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Reply
#4
RE: I always assumed there would be evidence.
I put down 1708 words and I can't stitch together a complete sentence between two responses? Wink
Reply
#5
RE: I always assumed there would be evidence.
Sometimes something has been stated so completely, and so well that nothing else need be said.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#6
RE: I always assumed there would be evidence.
I'm just teasing, bud.
Reply
#7
RE: I always assumed there would be evidence.
Don't worry, our resident theists will be along at some point to offer up something truly ridiculous as a response to your post.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#8
RE: I always assumed there would be evidence.
That was a good read, kind of similar experiences myself. Well said old chap, welcome to the forums!
[Image: bloodyheretic.png]

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Einstein

When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down happy. They told me I didn't understand the assignment. I told them they didn't understand life.

- John Lennon
Reply
#9
RE: I always assumed there would be evidence.
Welcome, that was a very interesting read and well put. I have to say you put a lot more effort into finding god than I did. After a few years of trying to talk to him in my head and he didn't show I just said, 'fuck it.'
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
Reply
#10
RE: I always assumed there would be evidence.
lol, The Lazy Atheist.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  I have always known. brian1570 10 2900 September 8, 2015 at 7:59 am
Last Post: Exian
  Finally found the evidence. That guy who asked questions 25 5740 May 22, 2013 at 12:19 am
Last Post: That guy who asked questions



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)