Deuteronomy 22:28-29

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Simply ripping up a poorly formed argument can feel good as well

You know the best power-tool for that job?

A chainsaw of logic.

[robvalue]

Thanks I carry it at all times, ready for any weak-ass shit people may try and pull on me.

[Drich]

Hey guys, I was pressing a guy on Deuteronomy 22:28-29 in a discussion elsewhere

"28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."


I asked him if society would be more moral if people obeyed this law, and he came back with this:

First of all, this is a Jewish Civil Law. I would encourage you to see the brilliance of the law. Much like America's civil law that makes men who get women pregnant, have to pay child support, this law make men pay for the crime of rap. If a woman in Jewish culture was found not to a virgin, she was disregarded by other men and had no future for marriage. This took care of this problem. Again, they may or may not be more moral, but they would be healthier and more civil.

I just wanted some help developing my thoughts in regard to this apologetic. What do you guys make of this? How might you respond to it?

I do have a few ideas on how I might reply, the main problem with the passage is that it doesn't give the rape victim any say in what happens, but I just thought I'd post this here and see if you guys thought of anything that didn't occur to me; I have been somewhat sleep deprived lately so it wouldn't surprise me.

my response to this apologetic?

[Chad32]

and to those on this thread who consider the law abhorrent even in light of my contextual interpretation. God did not create the social customs. people spread over the earth and created their own customs long before God chose his own people. God didn't make his law for the Jews from scratch... he made many of them to accommodate customs they already had. you may see it as misogynistic, but at that time people didn't think women could have any role other than that of a maternal role. despite this, God ensured women were protected under the law. you can't simply reform a nation of their customs they've had for hundreds to thousands of years. the bible itself states some of the Jewish laws were to accommodate the culture... just look at Matthew 19. the Pharisees ask Jesus if it's ok to divorce, he says no. they ask why Moses permitted it, Jesus says because their hearts were hard but it was not that way from the beginning.

Then why bother worshiping him, if he's no better than any other Human that was slightly more progressive than his peers? People like to claim that he's all knowing, and all powerful, yet has to make compromises on basic thing like treating people equally?

[Wyrd of Gawd]

You do know how they determined if the girl was a virgin, don't you? Just before the wedding took place the father would get a cloth and ram it up his daughters vagina. If it came back bloody it was proof that she was a virgin. He would then keep the cloth and if the husband claimed that the girl wasn't a virgin the father would get the cloth and show it to the crowd.

Now if the girl was out walking around the countryside and got raped it was probably OK if they simply claimed that she had been a virgin.

[Cecelia]

Ask yourself this: If the Ancient Jews could not be considered a moral group, then why did Yahweh choose them over any other culture? Why not choose a different group of people? A better group of people where changes would be easier to make and fit into his 'perfect plan'? Surely his perfect plan did not rely on a bunch of Jews, and being the almighty creator he could have chosen any number of civilizations to reveal himself to.

If it was 'just the culture of the time', then surely Yahweh should have chosen a different culture. That he did not strongly suggests that 'it was just the culture of the time' is the exact answer to why the bible says what it does. Because the culture of the time invented a god that reflected their values much like other civilizations did.

[Chad32]

For some reason he picked a guy named Abraham to make a pact with, saying he'd bless the guy's descendants. Hence the term Abrahamic religion. The Israelites were those descendants, so they were the ones he was duty bound to bless.

Since his decisions are always supposed to be right, they have to be justified somehow. He can burn a town for being inhospitable and committing sodomy, but he can't do anything about his people using other people as chattel, except put a few restriction on it. He even makes a loophole for his restriction on enslaving other Israelite men.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

For some reason he picked a guy named Abraham to make a pact with, saying he'd bless the guy's descendants. Hence the term Abrahamic religion. The Israelites were those descendants, so they were the ones he was duty bound to bless.

Since his decisions are always supposed to be right, they have to be justified somehow. He can burn a town for being inhospitable and committing sodomy, but he can't do anything about his people using other people as chattel, except put a few restriction on it. He even makes a loophole for his restriction on enslaving other Israelite men.

And thar's them mean ol' iron chariots. Gawd hates iron chariots.