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RE: Is the Atheism/Theism belief/disbelief a false dichotomy? are there other options?
October 3, 2015 at 11:26 pm
I'm sorry Pyrrho, but I disagree that we can absolutely know that any statement is either true or false. Whilst that may seem potentially nonsensical, I do not necessarily know whether or not any axiom or tautology is actually representative of reality. Regardless of what I say about them, how seemingly apparent they are, or how you or I define them.
Let me be clear, I have no knowledge other than that there is experience, and you have not convinced me that what you are saying is correct.
I also find it ironic that you are using that nickname whilst you are saying what you are saying. This is not an attack on what you've said, rather, it is a statement explaining why I disagree.
Plato had defined Man as an animal, biped and featherless, and was applauded. Diogenes plucked a fowl and brought it into the lecture room with the words,
"Behold Plato's man!"
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RE: Is the Atheism/Theism belief/disbelief a false dichotomy? are there other options?
October 3, 2015 at 11:33 pm
The thing about tautologies is that they do not tell you anything about what is going on in the world. Right now, either it is raining in Moscow or it is not raining in Moscow. Knowing that tells one absolutely nothing about the weather in Moscow.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: Is the Atheism/Theism belief/disbelief a false dichotomy? are there other options?
October 3, 2015 at 11:57 pm
I get what you're saying, I am just uncertain as to whether or not there is a third option, or an Nth option, as I am unaware of how many possibilities there can be, in a kind of fuzzy logic way, but with the real number values between the two standard Boolean values 0-1 as undetermined.
Would you consider this to be similar to Whitehead's "mistakening the map for the landscape?". I am concerned that our words themselves are only partially, and perhaps entirely unrelated to the concepts that they are trying to convey.
Plato had defined Man as an animal, biped and featherless, and was applauded. Diogenes plucked a fowl and brought it into the lecture room with the words,
"Behold Plato's man!"
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RE: Is the Atheism/Theism belief/disbelief a false dichotomy? are there other options?
October 4, 2015 at 12:04 am
Are you talking about degrees of belief?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Is the Atheism/Theism belief/disbelief a false dichotomy? are there other options?
October 4, 2015 at 12:10 am
(This post was last modified: October 4, 2015 at 12:11 am by Psychonaut.)
Sort of, more like degrees of certainty about beliefs. Where the value of said degrees of certainty is unknown, but between 0-1.
Plato had defined Man as an animal, biped and featherless, and was applauded. Diogenes plucked a fowl and brought it into the lecture room with the words,
"Behold Plato's man!"
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RE: Is the Atheism/Theism belief/disbelief a false dichotomy? are there other options?
October 4, 2015 at 12:27 am
(This post was last modified: October 4, 2015 at 12:35 am by Alex K.)
@ Psychonaut, that's what I meant...
@ Pyrrho, how does one conceptualize degrees of certainty properly in a philosophical argument? Does one always have to have an opinion on something or can't one be legitimately undecided between the logical alternatives theist and (not theist), and withhold judgment? Is that what you call not knowing what one is?
My impression is that whether one calls oneself atheist or theist may be more a matter of self-image and habit than is usually admitted, and that yes/no beliefs are generally not so much unique binary flags in the brain and rather situation dependent. I may act as if there was a God in some instances, and as if there was none in others. If I am fairly certain, it can go one way so often that one can get the impression of a binary opinion. The more I think about it, the less the "yes/no belief" as an well defined state of mind seems real to me, as opposed to individual decisions to act in certain situations. What you say when asked may be just one of many decisions one makes to position oneself.
Maybe this is just sleep deprived me talking here...
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Is the Atheism/Theism belief/disbelief a false dichotomy? are there other options?
October 4, 2015 at 12:50 am
Okay here is the answer to your question. Belief as state uses boolean logic. Either you in something or you don't. If you say "I don't know what to believe" then I would say you clearly don't believe. I do note that some theists may use that phrase to denote confusion, but in that moment they usually still actually believe.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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RE: Is the Atheism/Theism belief/disbelief a false dichotomy? are there other options?
October 4, 2015 at 1:12 am
(October 4, 2015 at 12:50 am)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Okay here is the answer to your question. Belief as state uses boolean logic. Either you in something or you don't. If you say "I don't know what to believe" then I would say you clearly don't believe. I do note that some theists may use that phrase to denote confusion, but in that moment they usually still actually believe.
I think it's more apt to say belief is like database logic, where the states are true, false, and null. Null and false can be treated similarly in most cases, but it seems to reflect the difference between the agnostic and gnostic variants of atheism better. One returns a negative result because they actively hold a belief that there are no gods (false), the other returns a negative result because there is simply no belief present (null).
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"
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RE: Is the Atheism/Theism belief/disbelief a false dichotomy? are there other options?
October 4, 2015 at 1:18 am
(October 4, 2015 at 1:12 am)KevinM1 Wrote: (October 4, 2015 at 12:50 am)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Okay here is the answer to your question. Belief as state uses boolean logic. Either you in something or you don't. If you say "I don't know what to believe" then I would say you clearly don't believe. I do note that some theists may use that phrase to denote confusion, but in that moment they usually still actually believe.
I think it's more apt to say belief is like database logic, where the states are true, false, and null. Null and false can be treated similarly in most cases, but it seems to reflect the difference between the agnostic and gnostic variants of atheism better. One returns a negative result because they actively hold a belief that there are no gods (false), the other returns a negative result because there is simply no belief present (null).
You may be right. But on the point of is there a god yes or no it is still boolean.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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R: Is the Atheism/Theism belief/disbelief a false dichotomy? are there other options?
October 4, 2015 at 12:21 pm
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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