The phenomenon atheists haven't been able to explain - The Golden Ratio?

[Delirium]

Source: http://creationanswers.net/inteldesign/GODRATIO.HTM

[Atheist_named_Christian]

Source: http://creationanswers.net/inteldesign/GODRATIO.HTM

The last sentence alone shows, how idiotic this argumentation is:
"The beauty, symmetry, and order in nature shows the greatness of the God who made it all!"

It's just the other way round: God was invented to understand (or misunderstand) the greatness of nature. What this shows is that nature is great and humanity is not.

Mathematics is a completely self-containing construct that can be used to describe physical laws. To me, it seems abnormal to see god in it's beauty (with this kind of logic also some women are divine to me).

[Delirium]

I was actually trying to figure out why the golden ratio exists. As in, a mathematical explanation as to why and how the nautilus developed into a spiral, or what biological advantage growing in helices provides for the plants, etc. I figured there had to be at least one person in an atheist forum who, at one point or another, has had the golden ratio thrown in their face during an argument. I know I have.

[Atheist_named_Christian]

Sorry, misunderstood your original post. I do not have a direct explanation though (but I guess, there is one). However, you can think about it in a more general way:

Mathematics is strictly logical and so is nature. So it is not surprising at all that the rules of nature can be described precisely using mathematics. And therefore it is also not surprising at all to find mathematical patterns in nature itself.

The important point is, that creationists simply put it the wrong way round. This is how it really goes:
Nature invents the human brain (by chance); the brain invents mathematical formalism; mathematical forms describe nature BECAUSE mathematics itself was initiated by nature (through humans). No creation required at all.

[Rhizomorph13]

The banana has three ridges on one side and two on the other 2/3 = .666r which is what the mark of the beast really is, so obviously maths prove that Satan is the real backbone of reality. The Fibonacci sequence starts with 0, 1, 1, 2, 3 so there are three numbers then two numbers (2/3) and the fourth and fith numbers are 2 and 3 so all this leads us to see is that 2's and 3's are significant so therefore 23 is significant. 2 times three is 6 which is one less than 7 so we live in a fallen Earth owned by Satan. Now repeat this 3 times and you will be free, "Thee gayerg oot los yam vig yah."

Rhizo

[Tiberius]

I was actually trying to figure out why the golden ratio exists. As in, a mathematical explanation as to why and how the nautilus developed into a spiral, or what biological advantage growing in helices provides for the plants, etc. I figured there had to be at least one person in an atheist forum who, at one point or another, has had the golden ratio thrown in their face during an argument. I know I have.

The nautilus / golden ratio link is a well known exaggeration of truth in mathematics.

http://www.shallowsky.com/blog/science/f...tilus.html

Whilst it is true that the golden ratio can be used to draw very nice looking spirals, it is a falsehood to say that these same spirals are found in the natural world. Mathematics uses very exact and "perfect" measurements; the natural world doesn't reflect this at all. In mathematics, there are no limits to size (in either direction), whilst in the natural world, size has very specific limits.

[littlegrimlin1]

Yes.. obviously Satan controls the bananas!

[Violet]

Yes.. obviously Satan controls the bananas!

Excuse me... but that would be Frank. PLease don't forget this again... I'm rather tetchy about it...

[Delirium]

The nautilus / golden ratio link is a well known exaggeration of truth in mathematics.

http://www.shallowsky.com/blog/science/f...tilus.html

Whilst it is true that the golden ratio can be used to draw very nice looking spirals, it is a falsehood to say that these same spirals are found in the natural world. Mathematics uses very exact and "perfect" measurements; the natural world doesn't reflect this at all. In mathematics, there are no limits to size (in either direction), whilst in the natural world, size has very specific limits.

Yes, turns out the golden ratio is bullshit. The nautilus shell is a logarithmic spiral, and while the golden ratio can also be used to draw logarithmic spirals, they are not in any seashells that we know of.

I think the creationist argument to this would be something like "so what, perfect logarithmic spirals just created themselves?" And while I'm sure there has to be a deterministic mathematical explanation as to why seashells are logarithmic spirals, I don't know it.

[ARMS]

I learned in university that the laws of physics is used in biological systems to develop patterns, so although a shell won't be mathematically perfect, it's guideline shape is shaped by physics.