The Hayter-Braeloch Scale

[KichigaiNeko]

Something that remains unclear to me: what is the scale for? I agree with Adrian that a scale would be useful for surveys of religious belief. I also agree with purple rabbit that a scale adds nothing to debates about belief, and in fact would tend to muddy waters since it is impossible to fully capture peoples' often complex religious/ philosophical positions on a scale (of however many dimensions).

With regard to a possible survey question, I don't think that asking people whether there are arguments that conclusively (dis)prove god is the way to go. Unless you're going to survey a very specific group like priests or philosophers, the vast majority of the people who make up your sample simply won't know what arguments you're talking about. Much better to focus on certainty of belief.

For similar reasons, positions like ignosticism could probably be ignored for survey purposes- after all, how many people have even heard of ignosticism, let alone know what it is?

It's mk

Just Adrain having a mind blowout ...again...poor fellow

[Tiberius]

What is the scale for? It's a scale of various belief positions on God, simplified. I explained that in the original post. It's designed as a replacement for Dawkins' scale, which has been used widely by a lot of prominent atheists without them having actually thought about it properly. Dawkins probably invented it in the short space of 30 minutes, whereas Arcanus and I discussed it and developed it over the course of a couple of weeks.

[remza]

The point of the scale is so that Mr Hayter's name can go down in history. ;-)

I'm just trying to work out where I and my older brother would be on it.

The problem is my brother would call himself a "literal agnostic". He reckons that there is a god but that we cannot know him, he is "unknowable" (i.e. have any knowledge about him, we wouldn't be able to able to understand him because he so beyond us etc.). But I, as a Christian, reckon that you can 'know' God extremely well. Indeed you can study him, speak with him, sing praise to him.

Are we on the same discrete part of the scale?

[Tiberius]

@remza

Your brother would probably rank a 2, whilst you are probably a 1, if you think you can prove the existence of God, or be able to "know" him.

[fr0d0]

"know extremely well" doesn't = "know". All Christians 'know' something of God, because the basis of our belief is the bible... accepted observations of God. Both are #2 - one a Christian theist, and one just a theist.

[tavarish]

"know extremely well" doesn't = "know". All Christians 'know' something of God, because the basis of our belief is the bible... accepted observations of God. Both are #2 - one a Christian theist, and one just a theist.

I can know calculus extremely well, but it doesn't mean I know it.

...

Christians know something about a being which is outside the realm of perception and may or may not exist based on assumptions made by doctrinal assertions. God's an infinite being, but as a Christian, you know his necessary intentions and attributes from a book written by relatively uneducated people in the most superstitious part of the world in a time when the Earth was believed to be flat.

Makes perfect sense.

Celestial fairies are beyond my feeble comprehension, but I have this book that tells me all about them.

[fr0d0]

Good example with calculus tav. But then it may be possible to know the whole of it, as it's all 'knowable' or devised by humans in the first place.

---

Always the clown huh?

[Caecilian]

What is the scale for? It's a scale of various belief positions on God, simplified. I explained that in the original post. It's designed as a replacement for Dawkins' scale, which has been used widely by a lot of prominent atheists without them having actually thought about it properly. Dawkins probably invented it in the short space of 30 minutes, whereas Arcanus and I discussed it and developed it over the course of a couple of weeks.

Okay, I'll re-phrase that. What is one supposed to do with the scale? What purpose or use does it have?

The only real use for a scale of religious belief that I can think of is for surveys of what people believe in.

And for that purpose, the scale seems to me to be asking the wrong question. But maybe you had some other use in mind.

[Violet]

@remza

Your brother would probably rank a 2, whilst you are probably a 1, if you think you can prove the existence of God, or be able to "know" him.

I apparently am not on the same page with the definition of knowledge, so my comments are all irrelevant :S Poor me :S

[ib.me.ub]

I am 4.

@Adrian: Next is to get your scale peer reviewed within the scientific/psychological/philosophical community. But for a meer citizen of the World (me) it makes perfect sense.