Alcoholism

[Shell B]

I'm on a 10 week research programme, trying to track the growth of pandemics (y'know, those illnesses than can kill entire civilisations) by using mobile phones to see how people move and spread viruses.

When you mentioned cell phones, I though "boring." However, I am now fascinated.

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It may or may not be the case that some people have a genetic predisposition to engage in addictive behaviours.

Frankly, I don't see that this matters a great deal.

Whether or not someone becomes an addict is the result of their own choices. Whether or not an addict ceases to be an addict is also the result of their choices.

This is true regardless of whether or not they had a genetic predisposition to addiction. If they have such a predisposition, then their substance use might get them addicted quicker. They might also find it more difficult to withdraw, and more easily slip into relapse. But none of this changes the fact that at every point they are making decisions, for which they alone are responsible.

That says it all.

I don't want to make any absolute statements on this topic because it would appear that people are more likely to become alcoholics when it "runs in their family." That being said, it could very well be a nurture thing. I'm not quite sure. As far as it being a disease, it could be, if you look at the word from a different angle. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disease

Geneticists are having a bitch of a time finding all kinds of genetic predispositions. I have no idea what they will find in the future. So, again, I intend to steer clear of any absolute statements on the subject. I do hope that if they find a gene that is responsible for it, people who may have it will abstain.

So people who are pre-disposed to run people over should be perfectly safe to drive cars because, after all, they make the choice to run someone over or not right?

hock: Um, wut?

[Pippy]

"So I think's hereditary not with a specific genetic agent."

If I may repeat Eilo, this is a silly thing to say. I point out again that I think you're misunderstanding biology. Something that is hereditary absolutely HAS to be genetic. There is no other thing for traits that are passed on before birth can be. If a predisposition for addictive behavior is passed onto me by my father, and it is not the same as him teaching me english, where does it exist if not in genetic code?

Explain to me, if you could, how Alcoholism can be hereditary, without being genetic. What is being passed on if not genetics? And if it is real and genetic (or at the very least hereditary), how come it's not a disease but still a big scam?

Frodo is right on the money. That people may have a predisposition to be more affected my addictive behavior, and knowing so helps them try harder to avoid such pitfalls.

I also repeat, to anyone who thinks it is not real, not a disease, I envy you naivety.

[Eilonnwy]

"So I think's hereditary not with a specific genetic agent."

If I may repeat Eilo, this is a silly thing to say. I point out again that I think you're misunderstanding biology. Something that is hereditary absolutely HAS to be genetic. There is no other thing for traits that are passed on before birth can be. If a predisposition for addictive behavior is passed onto me by my father, and it is not the same as him teaching me english, where does it exist if not in genetic code?

Explain to me, if you could, how Alcoholism can be hereditary, without being genetic. What is being passed on if not genetics? And if it is real and genetic (or at the very least hereditary), how come it's not a disease but still a big scam?

I said:

It is a well known fact that psychologically we go to what we know. How often do we see a child who was abused become an abuser himself? Alcoholic homes are tumultuous and will always leave a scar on the children. It's not surprising that some will then turn to drinking themselves. Furthermore, there are such things as addictive personalities, and if they are inherited, then that's another reason a child can become an alcoholic. But it's still not genetic, there's no specific genetic trait within biology that has bee found to transfer alcoholism from parent to child.

Not the first explanation refers to psychology. How a child can "inherit" his father's abusive nature. Still not genetic. Furthermore, I said addictive personalities can be genetic. An addictive personality =/= alcoholism. You can be addicted to a lot of things.

It's really quite simple. Hereditary doesn't JUST refer to genetics. Genetics is a subset. That's the difference.

To make it simple, there can be hereditary factors that contribute to alcoholism, but I don't think there's an "alcoholism" gene in say, the same way there is a gene for Huntington's disease.

[Dotard]

I also had a period of 8 or 9 months when I had a serious coke habit- that was very bad indeed.

Oh PLEASE don't make me regale you all with the tales of my crackhead days. I got 11 months crackhead tales.

I had the will to stop that. Just sold everything I owned except a motorcycle and a backpack.

Rode off and never looked back.

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Very true, but alcoholism is actually a personality disorder, and they would still display whatever other symptoms and ramifications of that problem. It is not alcohol, or even addiction that is the disorder but a predisposition to lend yourself to addictive behavior. Or moreover some problem, that I beleive real and tangible, that as a side effect causes us to behave in a manner that easily adapts and ritualizes addictive behavior of all kinds. So yes, in a sense you need alcohol to be an alcoholic, but in another you do not.

Preaching to the choir here. It is why I threw obesity in there, it's just another addiction. Same as my pot and nicotine addictions. I can't be a pot head if I didn't smoke pot.

I am not whining or asking for pity. I am calm about things. It is certainly not an excuse. Let me make that clear, that I don't want any less responsibility for my actions because I feel that I have a mental disorder.

That's how it comes across to me when one starts claiming their problems are a "disease", as if they had no physical control over it.

Kudos to the rest of the post Pippy. I think Adrian sucks for commenting on posts he has not read. No one has time to read, debunk and reply to every post here, but if you're gonna comment on one you could at least fuckin' read it.

But that's just me.

[KawaiiKoneko]

Pippy, according to your logic I'd be totally screwed. Everyone in my direct line of family has had addiction problems.

My grandmother had over 7 million dollars, which she gave to my mom's half/step brother, which he squandered on drugs and alcohol. But even before then, My grandma stayed up at the bar and was never what one considered a loving or nurturing mother. My mom's dad was also keen on alcohol. And if that wasn't bad enough my mom's stepfather was also a raging drunk. My mom and her sisters used to hide whenever their parents (step dad and mom) got home because they'd be so drunk and out of it they'd beat the living daylights out of them. I won't go into detail as it's not necessary. But do you get my point? And other than religious indoctrination and manipulation, my mom has been the best mother I've ever seen. My mom grew up in a drug and alcohol abusing environment and didn't choose that course. The 'worst' she did was cigarettes which she gave up all at once (in one day) before she found out she was pregnant with me. My dad was an alcoholic, which he also gave up because he knew it affected my mom's happiness and his ability to be a father. My father's dad drunk himself to death.


As you can see by the above paragraph, I have a very dark family past. I don't flaunt my dirty laundry. But I want to prove a point. It doesn't matter how you categorize alcoholism. It's still your choice.

I can drink without becoming addicted. I can use drugs without becoming addicted. And it's very, very clear that my family has a 'predisposition' to addiction of drugs and alcohol. My sister does way more shit than I've ever done. But I've observed her behavior and know her personality. Anyone I've seen with an addictive personality are abusing it because they feel empty inside, whether they want to admit it or not.

Also, my aunt's and uncle's have children who are addicted to alcohol and drugs. Most of them are dealers (nothing against dealers, lol).

So I find it very hard to listen to people complain about it being a disease when I have just as much chance of being addicted to them as they do, but can safely have it without consequence or fear of addiction. It's called 'saying no.'

But thanks to everyone who has been participating in this thread. I greatly appreciate your input as it helps me find a correct opinion on things. :]


PS

If it turns out it's genetic or a disease, I'll change my opinion, just like Shell B. I'm not unreasonable. I just don't think it's either.

[Violet]

It may or may not be the case that some people have a genetic predisposition to engage in addictive behaviours.

Frankly, I don't see that this matters a great deal.

Whether or not someone becomes an addict is the result of their own choices. Whether or not an addict ceases to be an addict is also the result of their choices.

Not necessarily. Say your mother has been on heroine throughout her pregnancy with you. That is an addiction if I've ever seen one... are you going to tell me that's a choice for the small child?

This is true regardless of whether or not they had a genetic predisposition to addiction. If they have such a predisposition, then their substance use might get them addicted quicker. They might also find it more difficult to withdraw, and more easily slip into relapse. But none of this changes the fact that at every point they are making decisions, for which they alone are responsible.

There are many other methods of making someone an addict without them having a choice in the matter. Luckily, few of these are legal (though what's to stop lunatics like me from performing them...? )

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So people who are pre-disposed to run people over should be perfectly safe to drive cars because, after all, they make the choice to run someone over or not right?

Of course it matters. If there's an inbuilt motivator than the person has to avoid the problem. It's not the same for someone without the predisposition.

I'm with you here

Even though you were being sarcastic I say every case is different, and needs to be evaluated rationally, so even some people who are not "pre-disposed" to run people over should not be driving

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Preaching to the choir here. It is why I threw obesity in there, it's just another addiction. Same as my pot and nicotine addictions. I can't be a pot head if I didn't smoke pot.

I'd be amazed to find anyone addicted to obesity... rather I should think that it is the food and lack of exercise work (read: laziness) that many people are 'addicted' to

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Is alcoholism a disease or learned behaviour?

Again with the nature nurture dichotomy.

A recovering alcoholic (7 years 11 month 1 week 4 days) I really don't know. The issue is far from resolved, with literally hundreds of learned articles arguing each side. The notion of the addictive personality also remains controversial.

It took me nearly 20 years before 'I 'had a problem' yet my maternal grandfather and an aunt were hard core alkies from their first drink IE one drink and they HAD to drink until they passed out. My grandfather died from alcoholism. My aunt got sober after ten years and stayed sober until she died ,45 years later.

My perception is that some people seem to have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism. That does not mean they will necessarily become alcoholic.

I'm pretty well convinced that alcoholism is a disease for some people.What percentage I have no idea.Once a person is in the grip of an addiction, the cause is irrelevant and the prognosis for breaking most addictions remains poor.

I have some issues with the disease model, which is used by AA. My observation is that some alcoholics I've met seem to use 'it's a disease' as an excuse to avoid personal responsibility.


Recovering from alcoholism has been hard for me. Will power wasn't much of a factor in the first month of my sobriety, I was too ill,and just did what I was told. After that,to this day,willpower is central to my sobriety:The powerful desire and determination to stay sober. "I could have a drink" most days " I feel like a drink" about once a week , "I REALLY want a drink" about once every 3 months. So far so good.

I lack the arrogance of AA or others to claim I understand even my own alcoholism. My concern today is with the what and the how. I assert only I'm sober through total abstinence. I make no claims about my approach as a principle.I assert only that it has worked for me so far with odds of over 20:1 against.

[Violet]

So I find it very hard to listen to people complain about it being a disease when I have just as much chance of being addicted to them as they do, but can safely have it without consequence or fear of addiction. It's called 'saying no.'

I actually have a different name for it... I call it "Violent Objections to Murdering Intestines with Toxin". Whilst it isn't particularly enjoyable... it is certainly better than having those toxins get digested.

And rather than fear becoming addicted to the toxin... I find it is far wiser to fear the toxin

[Pippy]

Hey,

Not[e?] the first explanation refers to psychology. How a child can "inherit" his father's abusive nature. Still not genetic.

Please explain how inherit can be anything but genetic unless you mean inheritance as a poetic allegory to include all the things the parent teaches the child after birth. Such as 'I inherited my fathers hatred for Republican's". It is an apt allegory, but if we are talking about textbook hereditary nature, I am almost certain the only thing passed at that level is genetics. Heredity can be nothing other than genetic. If you say it is in fact not genetic, but may be hereditary, I am at a loss as to what you mean.

It's really quite simple. Hereditary doesn't JUST refer to genetics. Genetics is a subset. That's the difference.

For a fourth time, if I am not mistaken (this is an invitation to show proof or rebut or something) for something to be hereditary it absolutely has to be genetic. It is quite simple, but not very real it seems. If heredity does not refer to just genetics, what else is inherited that is itself not genetic? Please give me one example, I am dumbfounded.

To make it simple, there can be hereditary factors that contribute to alcoholism, but I don't think there's an "alcoholism" gene in say

Okay, I hear you. Are the factors that can contribute to alcoholism that may be hereditary such things as weak will, risk taking behavior, poor causal judgment, depression, plain lack of intelligence? Then we are closer to agreeing than before. Are all of those loose traits not genetic in their root? Is any part of us not genetic at root? If they are to be inherited from one of my parents chromosomes, can they at that point be anything other than genetic at their base? Can we name these traits that are genetic and inherited Alcoholism if we wish? There may not be one alcoholism gene, I agree, it may be a whole symphony of unfortunate active genes. It, as all mental illness, is a very gray thing. Very blurry. But real. It's realness is in the pragmatics of being able to name a mental illness only for the sake of naming it.

I appreciate you thoughts on the subject, and did not mean to laugh too hard at your right to hate AA if you like. Other than the whole heredity and genetics separate thing, I hear you. Thank you.

Kudos to the rest of the post Pippy

Hey Dotard, I really appreciate your understanding. I agree that it can come across as 'i want diminished responsibility' when some people refer to alcoholism. I can't overstate that I am not in that crowd. Same as belief in the belief in god thing, I disagree with a lot of those people too. I think alcoholism is real, but I don't want to wear it on my sleeve. Naming it helps us fight it. I hope you don't think I'm whining about it, I just can't sit here and watch people agree that it is not real.

Thanks man.

Pippy, according to your logic I'd be totally screwed.

Thanks for making the thread Kawaii, I didn't mean to take it over so bad. I hear that you think it is not a legitimate disease, and appreciate that. You sound like you have had enough experience with it to make up your own mind. I think it does mean that it might be easier for someone like me to get addicted and stay addicted than someone like you, or some third party even. We are allowed to disagree though, that's what I love about the world. Differences. Thanks again

Again with the nature nurture dichotomy.

Hey Padraic, good to see you again. I know, it seems a common denominator, eh?

Recovering from alcoholism has been hard for me.

I appreciate that you are recovered, it makes me smile. Life itself is a vicious struggle, and the philosophies underlying AA are very valid. One day at a time, that is gold.

I too don't like people using the disease concept as an excuse. I use it as an empowerment, but the line is thin, isn't it. Thanks.

I think alcoholism is as real a disease as Depression, Manic Depression, Schizophrenia, Dissociative Identity, and any other loosely defined, un-locatable on an Xray as of yet, "diseases".

Thanks again all,
-Pip

[Eilonnwy]

Pippy, I'm going to say this once more. Children can inherit characteristics from there parents based on what they grew up with. I'm talking about learned behavior. It's still "inherited" in the sense that it was passed from parent to child, but not through genetics. As stated, people go to what they know, even if what they know is abusive and dangerous. If they grew up learning that alcoholism is the way to deal with problems from their parents, they may learn that behavior and thus become alcoholics themselves. That simple.

I cannot explain this any better, if you still don't "get it", I give up.