Evidence for God being "a superior being" ?

[fr0d0]

Yeah you made that point already Caecillian. I asked a different question. One contained in my previous post but you ignored it there too. 2nd chance hotel.

[tackattack]

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True, but as far as we are concerned there is free will, and we are held liable to those actions since we're not a)eternal or b)omnipotent. Our perspective, for now, is the best we have to go off of until we find sentient life or AI.
I can see your point about the personificaions and I agree that the concept of God is a man-made concept. Just as the concept of black or chair is a man made concept. One is materialistic by nature another is not. I do actually believe that God's Love isn't a man made construct other than our interpretation of it. It's listed as an attributable noun in the Bible, "God is Love" . The parts where the Bible says God loves you or God is a loving God I dismiss as much as I do any other personification by adjective not proper identifier. I think our understanding of God has progreesed over years, albeit slowly and with the help of the scientific process. Using science to find "God" I believe Fr0d0 would say is an idotic excercise, but I think the scientific process can be useful in our approach to how God interacts wih the physical universe as we know it and helps define our ocncept of God.

Yes the choice is still ours. Your statement would be valid if God had no control over our choices, however he made us that way. He created us as sinners, knows when and how we will sin, and then condemns us to Hell when we sin ? this is sadistic, illogical, and certainly not what i would call "love".

Also, the concept of God is nothing like "black" or "chair". These are concepts that everyone can understand. You can ask two people with completely opposite views on every subject and they would still agree on what black or a chair is. What you describe is unique to you and many theists i know would disagree with your perception of God.

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He didn’t make us as sinners or imperfect. He made us as decision makers in his image. It’s ludicrous to think that God created us in his image and also create us as imperfect or sinners. Your misconception lies in the fact that he created us perfect the way we are and that includes giving us the ability to turn against him and be autonomous and that each individual should be accountable for his/her own actions and decisions.

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One problem with God is that there is absolutely no consensus on the term. It means different things to different people, which is understandable when you put it into the context that he is only a concept.

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Or in the context that he is omnipresent and exists outside the rules of the known universe.

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Completely the opposite. God was and is a pure concept.

No sir, there is no such thing as a "pure concept", whether you apply it to supernatural god(s), vampires, ghosts or anything else for that matter.

You seem to view it as something greater but the opposite of a mental concept or idea is an empirical object/entity that is demonstrable, something that actually exists and, this is your stumbling block here, can be demonstrated to exist. The mental conceptualisation of god like anything that exists only within the mind, without a material or physical object in reality to correlate to, is merely abstraction; therefore God is an abstract concept, not a "pure concept".

Fools came along thinking that science offered the same explanations when in reality it was a different subject. some people still hold on to such stupid notions. Only idiots replace God with Science, and vice versa.

But I guess that's why many wise theists often substitute the label "god" for the universe huh? The god/creator idea is an attempt to explain reality. It proposes a deity either intentionally/unintentionally created the universe as we know it. Science is humanity's tireless endeavour to gather knowledge and investigate reality which by corollary considers god and other logically impossible/unknowable products of myth to be utterly irrelevant in that context since there is no empirical evidence for it.

I do actually believe that God's Love isn't a man made construct other than our interpretation of it. It's listed as an attributable noun in the Bible, "God is Love" . The parts where the Bible says God loves you or God is a loving God I dismiss as much as I do any other personification by adjective not proper identifier.

You might want to reword your entire response here because that's a terrible analogy tack. You hold a position that god can be viewed as a man-made concept yet somehow his love isn't? You do realise that love is an abstract concept as well right?

I think our understanding of God has progreesed over years, albeit slowly and with the help of the scientific process. Using science to find "God" I believe Fr0d0 would say is an idotic excercise, but I think the scientific process can be useful in our approach to how God interacts wih the physical universe as we know it and helps define our ocncept of God.

Except the scientific method thrives on skepticism and new ways of thinking - religious beliefs crumble under any moderate scrutiny, and no, fr0d0 mentioned nothing about scientific study being applied to identify a god/deity existing, he stated that science doesn't hold the same kind of explanatory power as sky daddy does, which I would agree with. ^^

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Perhaps that was poorly worded, thanks! God’s Love is a separate concept to that of the human emotion love was my point. Also that it is an identifier of God’s nature. It’s also axiomatically and unforeseeably unobtainable.
Faith also thrives on a questioning attitude and scrutiny. Honestly I don’t think religions as a whole or blind faith does though. I would also agree that science holds a better explanatory power for material existence than sky daddy does.

It's a horrible analogy, as electricity is still bound by laws. Just because there's an infinite amount of it doesn't change the fact that it is subject to certain criteria in order to be called electricity. God, on the other hand, is taken by your arguments to be the necessary author of these laws, a prescribing force rather than describing force. This raises the questions we've been asking you all along, and which you dodge continuously. For the sake of argument, I'll assume your version of God is plausible.

I'll make the questions easy and concise so you can respond to them in order.

1. What is your account for why God has a nature?
2. Can God go against that nature?
3. Why is God's will effective rather than ineffective?
4. How can an infinitely powerful being (i.e. the Christian God) have things he cannot do? [/hide]

1- He doesn’t necessarily have to have a nature, but due to his observability in this universe he therefore has some sort of nature that’s observable.
2- I suppose he could… It depends.. Can you be anyone other than you? It would be possible I’m guessing, but holds no weight because any deviation from one’s nature is a temporary and unnatural state.
3- Could you please rephrase I’m not getting it, (Sorry I’m tired)
4- I don’t see anything he can’t do. Some things are outside of his nature to do (like affect free will), but nothing prevents him from doing anything due his omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience. Basically the only thing that limits God is God.

[Rwandrall]

He didn’t make us as sinners or imperfect. He made us as decision makers in his image. It’s ludicrous to think that God created us in his image and also create us as imperfect or sinners. Your misconception lies in the fact that he created us perfect the way we are and that includes giving us the ability to turn against him and be autonomous and that each individual should be accountable for his/her own actions and decisions.

He did create us as sinners. What i constantly hear with Christians is that man's problems are the fault of man himself because we are sinners so we deserve to be mortal, to have pain, and to go burn for eternity. But God created sin, God created us as potential sinners, and God created the possibility for us to sin, while (as an all-knowing being) knowing that we would sin.

From our point of view, there is a choice. We can sin or not sin. However God knows who will sin, and when. First, this means that God testing humans is completely illogical and obviously a man-made excuse, since he necessarily knows the outcome of these choices. Second, apparently God is okay with letting a vast portion of his "beloved" children go to Hell (non-christians, gays, divorced, those who have sex before marriage...) in the name of having a "choice". An all-loving God would do anything to prevent his children from going to Hell, he would even show himself to the world to save only one soul.

My point is that even if God existed, i do not have any good reason to believe he loves us.

[KichigaiNeko]

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He didn’t make us as sinners or imperfect. He made us as decision makers in his image. It’s ludicrous to think that God created us in his image and also create us as imperfect or sinners. Your misconception lies in the fact that he created us perfect the way we are and that includes giving us the ability to turn against him and be autonomous and that each individual should be accountable for his/her own actions and decisions.

He did create us as sinners. What i constantly hear with Christians is that man's problems are the fault of man himself because we are sinners so we deserve to be mortal, to have pain, and to go burn for eternity. But God created sin, God created us as potential sinners, and God created the possibility for us to sin, while (as an all-knowing being) knowing that we would sin.

From our point of view, there is a choice. We can sin or not sin. However God knows who will sin, and when. First, this means that God testing humans is completely illogical and obviously a man-made excuse, since he necessarily knows the outcome of these choices. Second, apparently God is okay with letting a vast portion of his "beloved" children go to Hell (non-christians, gays, divorced, those who have sex before marriage...) in the name of having a "choice". An all-loving God would do anything to prevent his children from going to Hell, he would even show himself to the world to save only one soul.

My point is that even if God existed, i do not have any good reason to believe he loves us.

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[tackattack]

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He didn’t make us as sinners or imperfect. He made us as decision makers in his image. It’s ludicrous to think that God created us in his image and also create us as imperfect or sinners. Your misconception lies in the fact that he created us perfect the way we are and that includes giving us the ability to turn against him and be autonomous and that each individual should be accountable for his/her own actions and decisions.

He did create us as sinners. What i constantly hear with Christians is that man's problems are the fault of man himself because we are sinners so we deserve to be mortal, to have pain, and to go burn for eternity. But God created sin, God created us as potential sinners, and God created the possibility for us to sin, while (as an all-knowing being) knowing that we would sin.

From our point of view, there is a choice. We can sin or not sin. However God knows who will sin, and when. First, this means that God testing humans is completely illogical and obviously a man-made excuse, since he necessarily knows the outcome of these choices. Second, apparently God is okay with letting a vast portion of his "beloved" children go to Hell (non-christians, gays, divorced, those who have sex before marriage...) in the name of having a "choice". An all-loving God would do anything to prevent his children from going to Hell, he would even show himself to the world to save only one soul.

My point is that even if God existed, i do not have any good reason to believe he loves us.

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Saying we as mankind are sinners does not mean he created us to sin. Because we have the ability to choose that allows us the opportunity to sin. There is no inherited sin from Adam, that's a common misconception. Man's problems ARE the fault of man himself, but not because we were born sinners or deserve anting, but because we sin. God created the opportunity to sin, and yes he saw it coming. Me as a Father can let my child go play out back, knowing full well he has the option to fall, get kidnapped, or whatever. If this cycle went on for eternity and I saw every single possibility play itself out, and that a majority of the time nothing happened to my son, I could then conclude that it's better to let him go outside and risk it to learn something then keep him cooped up. I hope that illustrated the point you're not getting better.
God knowing the outcome has zero bearing on us as a species learning from those outcomes over time, which I believe is the point to learning. If we were all born with God's knowledge and perspective, there would be no learning or growh as a species. God is not ok letting a vast portion "go to hell", he proved it by sacrificing his son for all of us. He can't force you to accept his love though. One more time with this analogy. You can stand out in the rain and wee everyone else being wet and miserable and be wet and miserable yourself, or you can come in out of he rain. He's invited everyone in, but not everyone comes in.

[KichigaiNeko]

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[hide]

He didn’t make us as sinners or imperfect. He made us as decision makers in his image. It’s ludicrous to think that God created us in his image and also create us as imperfect or sinners. Your misconception lies in the fact that he created us perfect the way we are and that includes giving us the ability to turn against him and be autonomous and that each individual should be accountable for his/her own actions and decisions.

He did create us as sinners. What i constantly hear with Christians is that man's problems are the fault of man himself because we are sinners so we deserve to be mortal, to have pain, and to go burn for eternity. But God created sin, God created us as potential sinners, and God created the possibility for us to sin, while (as an all-knowing being) knowing that we would sin.

From our point of view, there is a choice. We can sin or not sin. However God knows who will sin, and when. First, this means that God testing humans is completely illogical and obviously a man-made excuse, since he necessarily knows the outcome of these choices. Second, apparently God is okay with letting a vast portion of his "beloved" children go to Hell (non-christians, gays, divorced, those who have sex before marriage...) in the name of having a "choice". An all-loving God would do anything to prevent his children from going to Hell, he would even show himself to the world to save only one soul.

My point is that even if God existed, i do not have any good reason to believe he loves us.

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Saying we as mankind are sinners does not mean he created us to sin. Because we have the ability to choose that allows us the opportunity to sin. There is no inherited sin from Adam, that's a common misconception. Man's problems ARE the fault of man himself, but not because we were born sinners or deserve anting, but because we sin. God created the opportunity to sin, and yes he saw it coming. Me as a Father can let my child go play out back, knowing full well he has the option to fall, get kidnapped, or whatever. If this cycle went on for eternity and I saw every single possibility play itself out, and that a majority of the time nothing happened to my son, I could then conclude that it's better to let him go outside and risk it to learn something then keep him cooped up. I hope that illustrated the point you're not getting better.
God knowing the outcome has zero bearing on us as a species learning from those outcomes over time, which I believe is the point to learning. If we were all born with God's knowledge and perspective, there would be no learning or growh as a species. God is not ok letting a vast portion "go to hell", he proved it by sacrificing his son for all of us. He can't force you to accept his love though. One more time with this analogy. You can stand out in the rain and wee everyone else being wet and miserable and be wet and miserable yourself, or you can come in out of he rain. He's invited everyone in, but not everyone comes in.
[/hide]

Sorry Tacky ...you are just mind fucking yourself again...sweetie...

[Purple Rabbit]

There is no inherited sin from Adam, that's a common misconception.

So, was there any dying on the cross for our sins? Enlighten me.

[Caecilian]

Yeah you made that point already Caecillian. I asked a different question. One contained in my previous post but you ignored it there too. 2nd chance hotel.

I said that the whole concept of 'omnipotence' might well be incoherent. On reflection, I think that it is.

If an entity is omnipotent then it can do things which will render it powerless. So 'omnipotence' is not necessarily a permanent state. But is impermanent omnipotence really omnipotence? Presumably not, since it rules out doing things at points in the future.

Equally, if an entity is omnipotent it can do anything then it can do things that it can't undo. But of course it must be able to do them. So again, a contradiction.

Hope this answers your question.

[KichigaiNeko]

[youtube]Ni96T0HgwBY&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

[tackattack]

PR- There is more historicity in Jesus than there is for the story of Adam and Eve. Is that all you wanted to comment on?

Caecillian- Having the capability does not necessitate the will to act. Would you willingly act to limit yourself if you were all powerfull? No, doesn't make sense. Could you.. probably but that wouldn't be in your nature.

KN- No one on here is shoving religion down your throat or calling you miserable or useless as your video depicts. If you can't keep your intolerance of other people's belief in check when someone is trying to explain their beliefs becasue they were asked to, please feel free to ignore any more of my posts.