Veganism & vegetarianism

[Regina]

I don't see the point of being a vegen/vegetarian on animal rights grounds. We hurt animals every day by clearing land for new homes, stripping their habitats to get resources, pumping fumes into the air. We hurt them just by existing. As long as they're being killed as humanely as possible then I have no complaints. I just can't deal with the over-zealous vegan who thinks they're doing so much for animals, when they're living in a house, driving a car, filling that car with petrol. Go live naked out in the forest with no possessions if you really want to do your part.

For dietary or cultural reasons, I have no issue with it of course. It's not for me, but do you.

[AFTT47]

I don't see the point of being a vegen/vegetarian on animal rights grounds. We hurt animals every day by clearing land for new homes, stripping their habitats to get resources, pumping fumes into the air.

So it's okay when your dog shits on your bed because he pisses on your floor too.

[Aractus]

I haven't studied it formally. Yet I still know that carnivores have an intestine length to body length ratio of 5-1 while we have a ratio of 12-1. This means when we eat meat, we absorb many more toxins than a carnivore would.

And I know that our closest animal relatives, Chimps, are omnivorous like us, and that their digestive system is tailored to digesting more fruits than the human one is, and that the "fact" you've just cited is purely uninformed bullshit.

I know that a carnivore's renal system can handle the toxins associated with eating meat far better than our's can. Even so, carnivores must sleep many more hours each day and have much shorter lifespans. I also know that while our intestines don't have the 20-1 length ratio true herbivores do, we are capable of getting nearly everything we need from complex vegetables. Protein is not an issue because our body builds it from amino acids - all easily available from vegetable sources. Nearly all nutrients are available too - the exceptions being B12 and D3. Both are available as supplements. You know this so why are you neglecting to mention it?

Yes you "know this" and you "know that". Supplementation is not the preferred method for people to get their nutrients. The bioavailability of oral B12 appears to be absolutely terrible, thus people actually need injections and not a supplement. Iron, Zinc and Calcium all pose serious problems to vegans, as well as cholesterol and vitamin d.

To my knowledge there is no vegan derived D3 supplement, there is only D2 which has shown to be the less bioefficient form in humans.

Vegans do indeed need to carefully monitor their intake to make sure they are not deficient in certain areas and I'm sure most of them know that. Dairy-consuming vegetarians would have a hard time avoiding getting what they need if they wanted to - I suspect you damn-well know that. Contrast that with the carcinogenic-rich diet of a meat eater and it's ridiculous to say they have an unhealthy diet.

Again, that's not true. A dark skinned person living in my region can almost certainly not attain enough vitamin d through biosynthesis alone in the winter months (they would need 3-4 hours sun exposure in the middle of the day with as much skin exposed as possible). The only non-fortified foods that contain vitamin d in significant amounts are fatty fish and eggs; but it would take 5 eggs a day to reach the AI for vitamin d. I will however make a correction to my previous post, I said that 3-4 hours plus the AI is required for a dark skinned person - that's incorrect. It's 3-4 hours for an average dark skinned person (30-40 minutes for a light skinned person), OR achieving the AI with more minimal sun exposure.

I sometimes see people claiming you can vitamin d from mushrooms - as I said before, mushrooms do not contain vitamin d. It's an animal steroid that isn't produced in funguses. If you see a vitamin d level claimed for mushrooms it means there is faeces on the mushrooms (as many are grown in manure). Once you clean and cook your mushrooms there will be no faeces, and consequently no vitamin d.

[Aroura]

I keep trying to cut all meat out of my diet and failing.  We've reduced it a LOT.  I no longer buy fresh meat for dinner...like ever.  We used to have chicken or fish about 4 times a week, and beef or pork about once a week.  Now I only buy veggies and beans and fruits fresh.  But I can't seem to stay away from occasional processed meats (lunch meat, hot dogs, all the very worst things).  Also, fast food gets us about once a week, and although I try and get something somewhat healthy, I often get chicken.

As the resident health student, let me say - replace the processed meats, where possible, with fresh fatty fish, and lean meat. It is much healthier to have fish 2-3 times a week and lean meat 2-4 times a week than it is to have neither.

Processed meat doesn't count as meat in the diet, it counts as a discretionary food.

Oh hey, I know.  But what went was the expensive meat first.  My family simply will not eat fish, and the vast majority of fish I find for sale is not what it was even 10 years ago.

I think I'll just have to phase out the processed meats as well, but we aren't adding lean meats back in.  None of us wants to eat them anymore.

Since the processed meat is very occasional for now (like maybe once a month, sometimes not at all, even.) I don't think I'm going to worry about it too much.

[Silver]

I was vegan for two and a half years, just to see if I could do it, and I had no problems with the diet. I simply missed meat, and went back to eating it.

[robvalue]

I don't see the point of being a vegen/vegetarian on animal rights grounds. We hurt animals every day by clearing land for new homes, stripping their habitats to get resources, pumping fumes into the air. We hurt them just by existing. As long as they're being killed as humanely as possible then I have no complaints. I just can't deal with the over-zealous vegan who thinks they're doing so much for animals, when they're living in a house, driving a car, filling that car with petrol. Go live naked out in the forest with no possessions if you really want to do your part.

For dietary or cultural reasons, I have no issue with it of course. It's not for me, but do you.

Even if we cause some harm, we can still work to minimise it. What matters is the impact on reality, not the level of hypocrisy or zeal any particular person may have. If someone is helping in some small way, they are still helping, even if they could be doing more, and even if they are being a dick while doing it.

Clearly you do seek to minimise the harm, because of your comment about humane slaughter. You just draw the line for what is acceptable at a different point to where a vegan draws it.

[Longhorn]

But....bacon, dude

So that's your price? Bacon? Waffles I could see but bacon?

No no, waffles come before bacon, but waffles come before breathing too.

Still....bacon

[MentalGiant]

To my knowledge there is no vegan derived D3 supplement,

Our resident anti-vegan nutrition-nazi DOESN'T know everything?! Shocked, just shocked . 

Vegan sourced D3 supplements do exist and are derived from lichens. Just like B12 is present in vegan foods such as nutritional yeast and sea vegetables (and available in supplement form too). Also being the nutritional guru you are, I would think you realize vitamin D and B12 deficiency certainly isn't 'exclusive' to us poor, "sickly", meat deprived vegans .

[Mermaid]

Why would anyone rant to a vegan about how wrong they are? What the F difference does it make?

[robvalue]

I'm plenty used to it. I got bullied endlessly at school for being vegetarian, people would just walk up to me, sitting on my own, and start laying into me. The "arguments" people use as adults against me (unprovoked) aren't any more sophisticated.

I suspect it comes from fear and discomfort. Some people instantly feel guilty when they find out I'm vegan, and feel the need to "defend themselves" even thought I've launched no attack. I make no effort to try and preach or make people uncomfortable, so if I've ever come across this way, then I apologise. I generally don't talk about it unless it comes up in conversation. It's one of those subjects I find a lot of people can't talk sensibly about so I don't bother unless they show genuine interest.