(December 13, 2008 at 4:01 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Mutation is random but natural selection isn't. A human being is made up of about 100 trillion cells. And all these cells are unconscious, unintelligent biological robots. Yet when put together by evolution you get a human being which is conscious and can be capable of many amazing things (although they're only amazing to us humans as far as we know).
I agree with Dan Dennett that whether the future is determined or indetermined, its still going to happen. There's going to be a future. We don't know what that future is - there could be many many possibilities in fact - but there's still a future. We can't change the future either way so even if you believe the future is determined that doesn't mean you don't have free will. In the sense that you can still avoid bad things or try to reach the good things, etc. You can still have free will whether you believed the future is determined or not. Either way A future is still inevitable but what that future is we do not know. So you still have free will. It doesn't make sense to think "If the future is determined that mean is inevitable so there's nothing you can do about it". Yes, the future is going to happen regardless of what you do. Whatever happens, that is the future. You still have free will in the sense there's still evitability. It doesn't mean you can "change the future" whatever you do the future's still going to happen.
So the point is that predetermined does not mean you don't have free will. You are just as free as you've always been! Whether the future is determined or not. Its still going to happen and you still have free will in the same sense you've always had.
So, as you say, mutation is random but natural selection isn't.
To be more accurate mutation is essentially considered as deterministic,
only a certain mutation called "Genetic drift "is not.
Now let's look at the natural selection in a little bit more wider view.
The evolution of species is comparable to a tree.Each branch, representing a certain species, is born from a previous branch ,lives as such for a certain amount of time,and then undergoes a short time change and gives birth to other branches i.e.to other species.
The natural selection begins actually when the surroundig living conditions of the species are changing dramatically and then the struggle for life begins and the fittest survive.
The species stressed by the changing of living conditions might sometimes not give birth to other species at all.
Now,what determines the relative stable living conditions of a certain species to change suddenly ?
The causes are multiples ones, as for instance, changes of climate ,changes of the relief of habitat,disappearing of food ,diseases and alike.
In my opinion most of those factors, changing the living conditons of species are of an indeterministic character.
Here are two examples.
The extinction of dinosaurs is believed to be caused by a giant meteorite which fell in the area of the golf of Mexico.
Is it possible to think that some genius could formulate a system of mathematical equations which shall point to the fall of the meteorite in a certain date in the live of Earth ? Of course not.The fall of the meteorite can be only considered as pure random.
Now why should we consider an event which took place some 100 millions of years ago.
Let's look at the almost dayly extinction of species under our very eyes.
Do we know exactly the causes of this phenomenon? The answer is that only vaguely with a lot of guessing.
We are putting the blame on CO2 emmissions ,on the rise of temperature ,on the destruction of rain forrests,on polution,on urbanism, etc...
Each one of those factors for it's self or in any combination of them are
practically unpredictable ,meaning in fact random.
We have all the reasons to consider that the changing factors in the past of the Earth which gave born to new species where all but random.
Following, if the proper natural selection was deterministic,as you say, the evolution of new species viewed as a whole was in fact random.
Now about the free will ,the future happens allright ,no doubt about it
(read my post about "shit happens) but our free will influences it's course,also not doubt about it.
Only believers in Fate consider that the future is immuable but not we as atheists.
The belief in Fate which affects even secular minded people is just the problem which I consider we shall combate and the tool for it is ,in my opinion, the recognition of random as a law of mother Natutre.
Dodging your own thoughts. Not really possible! lol.
