Good day from a new member.

[robvalue]

You're welcome

No, I firmly hold that "objective morality" is either incoherent or useless. Morality is, as far as I'm concerned, a value judgement, not a measurement. For morality to be objective, there would have to be some fixed way of measuring it. That would require some sort of formulaic evaluation of all the factors involved in either a particular action someone takes, or of a society as a whole.

Someone could set such a formula, but then that would just be their own subjective morality made "universal".

The way I look at it, we set basic goals, then look to how we can best achieve those goals. Obviously personal freedom is a goal, but only a fairly recent one regarding the full populace. If two people, or two societies, can't agree on the goals, then for one to declare themselves "better" is pointless. They will likely both consider themselves better, because they measure their morality using their own... morality. It's circular.

Even when goals are agreed, how you go about them, and how you balance various factors will always be up for debate.

So I look back at slavery, and I can say that if personal freedom is an important factor then we are objectively better now than we were then. Of course, I do consider it an important factor. But ultimately, it's still an opinion. Also, morality is an individual thing. A society is not a monolith. So even if one was to agree, on some level, that society is better than it was, it all breaks down at the individual level. Everyone has their own differing opinions ultimately. All we have are overall shifts of societal norms towards or away from certain goals, or methods of achieving those goals.

God solves nothing. His rules, if he sets them, are just his subjective morality imposed on us. They could only be objective if they applied regardless of his opinion, and as such would have no input from him.

[Old Baby]

Hello all,
I'm a new atheist (as of maybe a month now). I've joined this forum to mainly add to my reading list. So far I've finished God is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens, I'm currently finishing The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, and will be starting The Portable Atheist by Christopher Hitchens in the coming weeks as well as either Letter to a Christian Nation or The End of Faith by Sam Harris. I've also been watching many debates, lectures, and videos to educate myself well on anti-apologetic, evolution, and the origin of the universe. 

My back story (to use comic book terms) is actually pretty common. My father is the pastor of a baptist church. He's very intelligent, well learned, has a masters degree in theology; he is a very smart man. Throughout my life I felt as though religion (Christianity mainly) didn't make any logical sense. For instance, as a child, I never understood why a perfect God would create imperfect beings, ordain them to fall, and have to sacrifice himself to save us from himself because of something he did. When I would bring this up to a theist in my life the answer was always the same... "because it would give God glory." None of it made sense. Fast-forward 6-10 years later and here I am at 20 years old coming to grips with the idea, there is no god. When I discussed it with my parents, they made sure I knew they loved me no matter what, but that this decision can only be made with much evaluation. So for the past month I've been binge reading authors (both atheist and theist alike) to find truth. So, I come to the forum for two thing as follows: Material and Community. Any good read you all would recommend or a certain place in the forum I can go to find this stuff, and like minded people I can talk to and ask questions about issued I come across. I am also a member of a Husky forum and I thoroughly enjoy the sense of community we have, so I hope this is no different.

I would say currently, the thing I'm in need of the most is a good book explaining morality with Darwinian evolution. I live with two seminary students, so usually I can slam all of their arguments into the ground, but I don't have any answers for morality. I've heard Sam Harris' book on morality is a good one, but are there any others you all find particularly enlightening?

I look forward to getting to know you all and learning a lot. Thanks in advance for the replies!

Hey, welcome to the forum.  My father is also a pastor.  I have not "come out" to my parents yet because I think it would break their hearts and be very hard on themselves.  

I have to say that I have struggled with many issues since my "awakening" a month ago, but morality is not one of them.  The weakness in the Christian argument for morality is in the assumption that no moral agency can exist without the existence of a divine authority and justice on a cosmic scale.  There's simply no evidence for that when we can demonstrate that morals come from our parents and the culture we live in.  I can even train my dog to act "morally", which is to say that I have taught my dog to understand that desirable behavior is rewarded while undesirable behavior has unpleasant consequences.  As humans, most of us understand the natural rewards that come with behaving one way vs. the negative consequences of acting another way.  We know that understanding these values is what desirable relationships and civilization itself is built upon.  This is morality.

[Excited Penguin]

I find many to fail to understand the problem with that kind of enforced morality. It's deeply troubling that some of you think among those lines, but I'll refrain from getting into it here.