Franics Collins

[athrock]

I don't mind being a bastard.  I'm many things much worse and more sinister than just a bastard.  

All of this posturing is pointless Athrock.  Your finger is on the trigger, 70k ahead of you..men women and children.  Do you pull it or not?

Sinister? Hmmm...you mean like a real satanist or something?

Ooooh, how interesting.

Except that even demons know that God exists.

[The Grand Nudger]

A satanist..jesus, you're deep into fantasyland aren't you?  How many ways will you avoid answering such a simple question?  Here I am, desperately searching for some common shred of humanity between us and you seem to be completely determined to prove to me that it doesn;t exist.

70k ahead of you, men women and children.  Do you pull the trigger, could you?

I ask..because I'm an ender of men, a jack booted thug, so deep into the mud on the moral lowground that one has to crawl to get beneath me.....and yet I could not, and would not, pull that trigger.

[Cecelia]

Don't forget that according to Second Samuel the census was God's idea in the first place. Of course Chronicles said that it was Satan. In both cases however, David gets off because God liked David. Apparently he really liked the hebrews. Not sure what there was to like about them. Why choose them over any other group? I know, I know. God works in mysterious ways. Which is why rape is totally okay during those times, as long as the man pays for his property. It was just the times, what could God hope to do about the culture? Other than you know, give a simple set of instructions for people. Or choosing an entirely different set of people who would be more receptive to whatever God's rules were.

Personally I've always felt like the story read more like people blaming supernatural forces on a disaster like a plague, than there actually being supernatural forces involved.

[athrock]

But then I think he then goes right off the rails:

"...if you're going to accept the existence of God, at some level you have to give up control and you can't just do what you want to because it feels good. And I liked very much being in control. I liked not having to answer to what was holy and vote for what was right. Maybe in some way, I was aware already without having put words to it, of the moral law — and aware that I wasn't living up to it.

From the concession that a faith based worldview need not be dismissed out of hand, it does not follow that one should abandon control to a hypothetical god.  That is just whack.  One can admit that one has less control than many probably surmise without willfully abandoning any role whatsoever in ones life.  Self abnegation is always a mistake as well as reprehensible.

There are ways to live a life with a faith based worldview, and even hold your head up high in doing so.  But Collin's way isn't one of them.  You meet and hear of so few impeccable theists.  I wish those there are would do more to make themselves known to encourage others.  But they probably feel estranged by the fundamentalists who dominate most traditions.  It would be much more interesting to live in a world with those guys to challenge us than it is to be constantly proselytized to by idiot fundamentalists who have so missed the boat.

Yeah, and he never explains why he became a Christian as opposed to a Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu, Buddhist, etc., other than he read some simplistic book by C.S. Lewis on the "3 Ls".  Collins reasoning is just simple-minded, so simple-minded, in fact, that it is likely that he "converted first" (out of emotional despair) and then went looking for "evidence" after the fact.

Curiously, neither has Cecelia.

She claims to have all these problems with the God of the Bible, but that only explains why she isn't a Jew or a Christian.

It seems to me that she's made a logical leap from rejecting the God of the Bible to rejecting all views of God including those you listed and more.

Reveals a certain provincialism in her thinking, doesn't it?

I mean, if you're going to be a REAL atheist, you've got to think outside the box of Western society and have reasons for rejecting more than just the nasty God of the OT, don't you think?

[athrock]

A satanist..jesus, you're deep into fantasyland aren't you?  How many ways will you avoid answering such a simple question?  Here I am, desperately searching for some common shred of humanity between us and you seem to be completely determined to prove to me that it doesn;t exist.

70k ahead of you, men women and children.  Do you pull the trigger, could you?

I ask..because I'm an ender of men, a jack booted thug, so deep into the mud on the moral lowground that one has to crawl to get beneath me.....and yet I could not, and would not, pull that trigger.

Me, either.

I'm not God, and I have no right to do so.

[athrock]

Don't forget that according to Second Samuel the census was God's idea in the first place.  Of course Chronicles said that it was Satan.  In both cases however, David gets off because God liked David.  Apparently he really liked the hebrews.  Not sure what there was to like about them.  Why choose them over any other group?  I know, I know.  God works in mysterious ways.   Which is why rape is totally okay during those times, as long as the man pays for his property.  It was just the times, what could God hope to do about the culture?   Other than you know, give a simple set of instructions for people.  Or choosing an entirely different set of people who would be more receptive to whatever God's rules were.  

Personally I've always felt like the story read more like people blaming supernatural forces on a disaster like a plague, than there actually being supernatural forces involved.

See post #84.

Thanks.

[The Grand Nudger]

Me, either.

Finally, progress.

I'm not God, and I have no right to do so.

Oh..is that why you wouldn't do it?  If you were god...you would?   Tell me again that you're not a charlatan, I just like to see you say it.

[athrock]

Me, either.

Finally, progress.

I'm not God, and I have no right to do so.

Oh..is that why you wouldn't do it?  If you were god...you would?   Tell me again that you're not a charlatan, I just like to see you say it.

Apparently, I'm a liar, a missionary, a fraud and a charlatan. According to you. 

But I'm not a troll as you clearly are.

Go amuse yourself in some other thread. I won't waste more time on your drivel.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think we've reached the point where you can no longer feel comfortable defending your previous claims.  You do not agree with gods actions and would not engage in them yourself.  

So yeah...you're a fraud.

Have fun /w the thread.

:drops the mic:

[Cecelia]

Actually it's quite simple as to why I've dismissed other religions. Once I gave up my Christianity, I came to realize the one big question: Why would god choose a small subset of people to give his laws to, instead of giving them to everyone? I saw much of the same sexism and homophobia in other religions as I did Christianity. But more than that I saw that they were no different from Christianity. A small group of people when the whole is considered. One area among the hugeness of this earth. Why give truth to a small group of people, expecting them to live by the rules you set, and then not telling the rest of the world what your rules are? Most of those religions also require one thing to run them: Money. They would not sustain if they did not have money. None had an ancient set of morals that screamed 'too ahead of their time to be the values of the people who wrote the texts.'