The Ultimate Value and the signs of it in ourselves.

[LadyForCamus]

Perhaps, we are programmed to believe in things that aren't real?  

Or perhaps we been given knowledge of unseen pleasures and a path. What is delusional about you having a value independant of what you think of yourself. What is it that will make it a delusion? Is that it requires a Creator, a source of the value, or maintainer or one who sees you or is that the feeling one day we will see who we truly are something that makes it false? Or is that we must have a soul that makes it an illusion?

I will answer these questions with a quote from one of my most beloved television shows - It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia

Dennis Reynolds: "Your true power comes not from outside sources, but from the delusional stories that you all convince yourselves of.
And no one...NO ONE...can take that away from you."

[robvalue]

The opinion of some weird being outside our reality is still an opinion. It's not objective, it's just external and (as usual) unfalsifiable. It also has no practical applications, even if true.

I think Mystic is falling foul of a very common problem, "all or nothing" binary thinking. If something is in any way an opinion, or in any way finite, or in any way challengable, it is worthless. This is clearly not true, as our entire lives exist within this grey area, and they matter to us and to each other. I don't give a monkeys what the opinion of the guy who set up this simulation is. We're here making the best of it.

[henryp]

Perhaps, we are programmed to believe in things that aren't real?  

Or perhaps we been given knowledge of unseen pleasures and a path. What is delusional about you having a value independant of what you think of yourself. What is it that will make it a delusion? Is that it requires a Creator, a source of the value, or maintainer or one who sees you or is that the feeling one day we will see who we truly are something that makes it false? Or is that we must have a soul that makes it an illusion?

I think the idea is answering a question that already has an answer, because we'd prefer a different answer.  If a door shuts by itself, and I go upstairs to check why, and see two windows are creating a crosswind through the house, a crosswind through the house shut the door.  There's no reason to think it might be a ghost, or that the door is possessed, or there's a glitch in the matrix, etc...

That didn't use to be the case.  Back in the day, things were happening all over the place, and nobody knew why.  In that scenario, people have no choice but to consider the unknown.  But as we whittled away the unknown, and have explanations for almost everything, it seems pretty clear, we are no longer trying to explain things with religion, as much as trying to create a separate existence that accommodates some wishful thinking.

Why don't people have independent value?  I say because there is no reason to think they do.  I try to look at it from a 3rd person perspective.  An observer of our planet.  I look at humans, and I see no reason to consider that maybe there is a magical aspect at play... We look like really smart animals to me.  It seems plainly evident.  Although, I also see why the smart animals would want to believe in things like independent value and God.  But I don't see why that makes a difference in reality.

[Mystic]

I know it's bad to revive threads, but I feel this was one of the better discussions.

I want to say we can prove the thesis by contradiction:

It's absurd to say false judgement can define who we are and it's obvious we can falsely estimate ourselves and that our value cannot be just chaotically assigned to what we desire, yet it was obvious that value is a thing given by perception.

This shows 1. We are defined by value giver that is right in it's judgement. 2. That we are created in a way that actions and value are interlinked and value either negatively or positively happens with our actions.

I would define actions as series of states that forms a summary of usually a goal or various goals in mind. For example I biked to school, is a series of me biking and the goal is to get to school through biking (and it may have other intentions like exercise, losing weight).

Actions being a series of states means the goal or goals and the spirit while doing it, the life force behind it, get's inherited to who we are and the value we are.

To say our actions are not and we simply decide what our value is by those actions and assign it, has been proven wrong, as we can have absurd morals like Hitler and think we are some sort of hero.

[Alex K]

Glad I could help

Dry math jokes... I'm proud of you

[LastPoet]

Glad I could help

Dry math jokes... I'm proud of you

Its a rotting thread but yes, I like dry math jokes.

[Angrboda]

It's obvious that MK has never read Don Quixote...

[Silent Snob]

It's obvious that MK has never read Don Quixote...

I haven't read it either. But I saw a puppet-show on telly once upon a time. Would that count as knowing what Don Q. and his buddy Sacho are all about?

What is called the "augsburger Puppen-Kiste" was educating me at that time in space.

I'm sorry I never read the book. But I'm even more sorry I never wrote that book, actually.

[bennyboy]

So Hitler assigns a value to himself. I guess that's his value. Or it what value him to be that, that is his value too. Or right, there is none really but let's just assign value anyways! So in this approach do we really assign value or disbelieve in the true value to humans? I don't see any real assigning value except lip service to the very fact we by our nature do so automatically.

It's wrong because it's double think. It's dishonest approach to who we are and the knowledge we been given.

To deny the sacred, you are willing to go as far as to deny yourself having an actual value independent of what you assign yourself or what other assign you.

I never once saw one person here enthusiastic to hear a proof of God or ways we can know God. Everyone takes in a way with a negative attitude with no iota of enthusiasm to want God to be true or a way to know it's truth.

You are still having trouble differentiating between things, their properties, and ideas about them.

"Value" is not a thing.  It's not a property of a thing.  It's an idea that a person has about a thing.  Hitler certainly had the capacity to assign a value to himself, or to Poland, or to whatever he wanted.  I have the capacity to assign value to myself, or to an ice cream Sundae.

What's this bullshit you keep saying about dishonesty?  Here's what honesty is.  I think your God is a bullshit idea made up by people.  I think you are a spreader of bullshit, because you are constantly trying to persuade us to adopt an idea for which you can provide no evidence.  I think you are a hypocrite, because while you blame others for their closed mindedness, you are not opening your heart and mind to the wonders of Zeus, of Thor, or of the monster hiding under my son's bed.  Where's your "iota of enthusiasm" to know the truth of the thousands of other gods that people believe in, or have believed in?

You think thousands of gods are bullshit, and one is the real deal.  In 1000 cases, you take the exact same position and attitude as all the other atheists around here.  Now. . . just realize that the group should be 1001, and you can crawl out from under your Dark Ages religious rock and into the sunlight of the modern mind.

[WinterHold]

 I look at the moon, and I have subjective impression of it's size

Look elsewhere. You will be surprised by the other "things" we have subjective impression towards their size.
I call it "the philosophy of the cock    " by cock I mean male chicken, not what the following Shiite hadith advocate for:

“Narrated to us Ali bin Ahmad bin Abdullah bin Ahmad bin Abi Abdillah al-Barqi: Narrated my father, from his grandfather Ahmad bin Abi Abdillah, from his father, from Muhammad bin Abi Omair, from more than one person from the Truthful Ja’far bin Muhammad from his father, from his forefathers, peace be on them, said: One of the companions of Amirul-mu’mineen (Ali) complained to him his women. He [as] thus stood to address the public saying: O people, Obey not the women in any case, nor trust them with money, nor let them be in charge of the children, for if they are left to do what pleases them, they will lead (you) to troubles and aggress the rights of the lords. We found them to be unhesitant when they are in need, impatient when their (sexual) lust at peak, wasteful spending is part of them even if they are old, and self admiring follows them even at their senior age. They don’t appreciate the “much” when they are prevented the “little”. They forget the good and recall the bad. They rush to falsehood, insist on arrogance and follow Satan. So deal with them at any how, address them well that their deeds be well (as a result). (al-Amaali: Ibn Babawaih al-Qummi, the 37th council, narration No. 6, p.172)".

Are Shiite scholars suffering from a shortage? I mean shortage in supplies, like male chickens !
That's a philosophy I would be so interested to read about. 

I get it: you are trying to post topics, wait for visits to increase, then call them seeds. I totally get it.
But the religion itself contains terrible parts that range from sexism to bloody human sacrifice. How can your conscious rest knowing that you preach for such faith?

That is beyond me.

One last Shiite hadith:


“(Narrated) Ali bin Ibrahim, from Haroon bin Muslim, from Mas’adah bin Ziyad, from Abu Abdullah [as] said: Amirul-Mu’mineen (Ali) [as] said: Beware of marrying the

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Negros (zunj)

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for they are a distorted creation.” (al-Kafi (fil Furoo’): Book of Nikah, Chapter: Whom (the Imam) Disliked for Marriage Amongst the Kurdish, Negros and Others, vol. 5, p. 352, Narration 1)