Brainstorm

[Excited Penguin]

You clearly do disagree with it. My entire point was that you can't tell what kind of a person someone is just by whether they're a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim, etc. And yet you say that you can.

In theory, you should be able to tell by that alone. In practice, it's not that simple. This is why I say, insofar as they are religious they are evil, but insofar as they only identify as religious, they are simply dumb.

Bullshit. I know many good people who aren't anti-theists, including both atheists and theists. I'm not an anti-theist either and I'm a good person. I have theists friends who are good people... most of my best friends are atheists but they're not anti-theist.

I think you're not ready to have this conversation yet. Your thinking is just not nuanced enough.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

Beliefs of Christians:

1. You are, just by participating in the sin or your birth, evil.

2. You are not simply imperfect, as in failing to approach the limits of the construct imagineered by humanity which we call perfection, and therefore prone to making errors as you learn to navigate this world. Nononono, you don't deserve such fair treatment as that, for the bible says, and your god has declared that you are naturally evil.

3. You are at least twice as evil if you happen to have been born female.

4. Therefore, you need the forgiveness of a god with the personality of no man who you would tolerate in society, much less in your home. This is a true Mafia don of a god, who demands your worship, tribute, and respect de facto. He's not a bully, he's righteous!

5. God's love is so deep that he doesn't really want you to be tortured for all eternity in the firey hell which he cannot in any credible way disavow his responsibility for, which goes with the responsibility you carry when you happen to be able to see all of the future, have all the power to alter any scenario, and can do this everywhere all at the same time. Therefore he decided to take out all his rage for your offenses brought on by being born imperfect, just as he made you to be, on his own son by killing him on a cross. What a hell of a great Dad your God da Fatha Yahweh Corleone is! Actually, he makes Al Pacino's Corleone look like a really nice guy by comparision!

Ok, I don't believe any of those things. 

I'm not surprised, and I would be surprised if you did believe those things. But I'm sure you are aware that these are common Christian teachings. Traditionally, it is one which has denigrated the female gender, and it has denigrated the general good nature of humanity.

If you don't mind my asking, I'm curious as to how you, as a young woman, feel about having the rules for your own conduct handed down by a bunch of old guys who have so little empathy for your gender, and may not have ever so much as spent a night with a woman, much less really loved or cared about one? They know so little about you that to them you're almost a different species, and yet you allow them to lord their authority over you? They also may have something to say about your avatar photo, if that's really you sporting those bare shoulders, low-neck blouse, and shit-eating grin - very naughty!

Do you want my honest answer? 

I feel much more disrespected and demeaned by what you're saying to/about me here than I have ever felt by Church teaching. Which is 0.

Well, I hope you don't take it personally by me. Have I presumed wrong that you accept, as a good Catholic, the doctrines of the oldest and wealthiest old boys club ever known to the world? It seemed a logical conclusion, and if I'm right than you should not be mad at me. If I presumed wrong, then please forgive my bad presumption.

On your avatar photo, I was playing the devil's advocate (so to speak), which I thought was apparent enough. No, I do not at all regard you with such contempt, and if I didn't respect you then I wouldn't go out on such a limb to level with you on the issues of accepting the authority of those who determine the rules for any Christians! I was just trying to point to the darker perspective of that Vatican club. I know they haven't been quite so hung up about showing a little skin, like the Puritans and the Stepford wives Protestant sects, but I'm still curious as to how, or by what process(es) one can decide what codes to live by without rejecting the authority of the Vatican officials entirely. I can accept what sounds right to me by atheist philosophers and scientists, but religious authority is supposed to be an all-in-or-out game, or their is no valid authority - am I right or wrong on that?

The problems I listed describe conservative Christianity in general, not necessarily modern Catholic beliefs.

If you care, can you tell me if you have any use for the decisions made by your church authorities?

[Excited Penguin]

---

Ok, I don't believe any of those things. 

I'm not surprised, and I would be surprised if you did believe those things. But I'm sure you are aware that these are common Christian teachings. Traditionally, it is one which has denigrated the female gender, and it has denigrated the general good nature of humanity.

Do you want my honest answer? 

I feel much more disrespected and demeaned by what you're saying to/about me here than I have ever felt by Church teaching. Which is 0.

Well, I hope you don't take it personally by me. Have I presumed wrong that accept, as a good Catholic, the doctrines of the oldest and wealthiest old boys club ever known to the world? It seemed a logical conclusion, and if I'm right than you should not be mad at me. I presumed wrong, then please forgive my bad presumption.

On your avatar photo, I was playing the devil's advocate (so to speak), which I thought was apparent enough. No, I do not at all regard you with such contempt, and if I didn't respect you then I wouldn't go out on such a limb to level with you on the issues of accepting the authority of those who determine the rules for any Christians! I was just trying to point to the darker perspective of that Vatican club. I know they haven't been quite so hung up about showing a little skin, like the Puritans and the Stepford wives Protestant sects, but I'm still curious as to how, or by what process(es) one can decide what codes to live by without rejecting the authority of the Vatican officials entirely.

The problems I listed describe conservative Christianity in general, not necessarily modern Catholic beliefs.

If you care, can you tell me if you have any use for the decisions made by your church authorities?

---

[Catholic_Lady]

Ok, I don't believe any of those things. 

I'm not surprised, and I would be surprised if you did believe those things. But I'm sure you are aware that these are common Christian teachings. Traditionally, it is one which has denigrated the female gender, and it has denigrated the general good nature of humanity.

Do you want my honest answer? 

I feel much more disrespected and demeaned by what you're saying to/about me here than I have ever felt by Church teaching. Which is 0.

Well, I hope you don't take it personally by me. Have I presumed wrong that you accept, as a good Catholic, the doctrines of the oldest and wealthiest old boys club ever known to the world? It seemed a logical conclusion, and if I'm right than you should not be mad at me. If I presumed wrong, then please forgive my bad presumption.

On your avatar photo, I was playing the devil's advocate (so to speak), which I thought was apparent enough. No, I do not at all regard you with such contempt, and if I didn't respect you then I wouldn't go out on such a limb to level with you on the issues of accepting the authority of those who determine the rules for any Christians! I was just trying to point to the darker perspective of that Vatican club. I know they haven't been quite so hung up about showing a little skin, like the Puritans and the Stepford wives Protestant sects, but I'm still curious as to how, or by what process(es) one can decide what codes to live by without rejecting the authority of the Vatican officials entirely. I can accept what sounds right to me by atheist philosophers and scientists, but religious authority is supposed to be an all-in-or-out game, or their is no valid authority - am I right or wrong on that?

The problems I listed describe conservative Christianity in general, not necessarily modern Catholic beliefs.

If you care, can you tell me if you have any use for the decisions made by your church authorities?

Hi Hanky, I addressed this on the Hall of Shame thread just now. I appreciate what you're saying.

[Excited Penguin]

So, can you tell me why abortion is wrong, CL, no matter the circumstances or how early in the pregnancy it is? Does the fetus' existence trample the mother's interests at that point? If so, how do you propose we avoid unwanted pregnancies?

[Catholic_Lady]

I think a person's right to life trumps all other rights, since without that right first and foremost, there can't really be any other.

From a Catholic moral stand point, I think the best way to avoid unwanted pregnancy is to not have sex until you are married. But if you're not Catholic and are not celibate until marriage, then I think condoms are a better alternative to hormonal birth control (which can be harmful to a woman's health). Just make sure you use a good quality brand and put them on correctly so that nothing "escapes" lol.

Anyway.... I kept it short as not to derail the thread and turn it into another abortion thread.

[Excited Penguin]

I think a person's right to life trumps all other rights, since without that right first and foremost, there can't really be any other.

From a Catholic moral stand point, I think the best way to avoid unwanted pregnancy is to not have sex until you are married. But if you're not Catholic and are not celibate until marriage, then I think condoms are a better alternative to hormonal birth control (which can be harmful to a woman's health). Just make sure you use a good quality brand and put them on correctly so that nothing "escapes" lol.

Anyway.... I kept it short as not to derail the thread and turn it into another abortion thread.

It's not derailing here. The OP encourages us to talk about anything we want. I'm sure he won't mind. I have inside information on that.

I find your response to be great.

One thing though, unwanted pregnancies still happen. Why do you think that is?

Also, phrasing it like that is a little misleading(when talking about life). A fetus is not exactly the same as a person, not until a certain point and in certain respects, anyway.

I have some doubts myself as to whether we should allow abortion or not, but none of them stem from religious reasons. They stem from my ignorance concerning a fetus' development, ability to suffer and think, and so on.

[Catholic_Lady]

I believe a human fetus is still a human being. This is just a matter of biology. Calling him/her a person, a baby, or a fetus... doesn't matter to me. So long as it is made clear that he/she is human.

Yes, they do still happen and this fact shouldn't be ignored or dismissed. These women do need our help and compassion. But I just don't think taking away another human life is the right or just answer.

[Excited Penguin]

I believe a human fetus is still a human being. This is just a matter of biology. Calling him/her a person, a baby, or a fetus... doesn't matter to me. So long as it is made clear that he/she is human.

Yes, they do still happen and this fact shouldn't be ignored or dismissed. These women do need our help and compassion. But I just don't think taking away another human life is the right or just answer.

I believe human life has dignity as well. But how do we define it is the trickier part.

At which point does it become human?

[Catholic_Lady]

At the moment of conception it is, biologically, a human entity. I don't know of any other fair way to define that point other than by what it actually is. It would just be arbitrary otherwise, and when it comes to defining another being's humanity, history has shown us that being arbitrary on this can lead to horrific things. (think holocaust, slavery, the slaughtering of indians in the new world, etc... all in the name that these people weren't actually "human")