The Problem With Ayn Rand

[Mechaghostman2]

Her objectivist philosophy is based on the false dichotomy that egoism and altruism are mutually exclusive. Sometimes what is good for others can also be good for you. Sometimes, it can be in your own self interest to think about helping others.

For example, what if I wanted to pay higher taxes for more nationalized charity? Say someone or myself needed it at the time or might need it in the future. This is being altruistic for selfish reasons, but it is altruism none the less.

Chimpanzees even exhibit said behavior. It has been studied that a chimp will give food to another chimp quite probably to prevent a fight from breaking out. Is this out of self interest or selflessness? Really, it's both. They act selfless for selfish reasons.

Thus, even in the world of chimps, Ayn Rand's philosophy is full of shit.

[abaris]

Her objectivist philosophy is based on the false dichotomy that egoism and altruism are mutually exclusive. Sometimes what is good for others can also be good for you. Sometimes, it can be in your own self interest to think about helping others.

Ayn Rand disqualifies herself already by presenting egosim as the ultimate goal. We're a social species. Everyone for themselves hurts us, apart from having to be a perfect prick to only be egotistical.

[ApeNotKillApe]

If there's one thing we don't need more of, it's selfishness, it doesn't need further encouragement. There is already a massive surplus.

[Rev. Rye]

And do you want to know the root of this fatal flaw? It comes from her admiration for a psychopathic killer named William Hickman. Look at this essay comparing notes from her early journals with her novels.

[Mister Agenda]

Her objectivist philosophy is based on the false dichotomy that egoism and altruism are mutually exclusive. Sometimes what is good for others can also be good for you. Sometimes, it can be in your own self interest to think about helping others.

For example, what if I wanted to pay higher taxes for more nationalized charity? Say someone or myself needed it at the time or might need it in the future. This is being altruistic for selfish reasons, but it is altruism none the less.

Chimpanzees even exhibit said behavior. It has been studied that a chimp will give food to another chimp quite probably to prevent a fight from breaking out. Is this out of self interest or selflessness? Really, it's both. They act selfless for selfish reasons.

Thus, even in the world of chimps, Ayn Rand's philosophy is full of shit.

I'm not a follower, but Ayn Rand was a proponent of the idea of enlightened or rational self-interest, the very notion that what's good for other people can be good for you. She just thought it should be voluntary.

She's confusing to read, because although she carefully defined her terms, she used them in ways that most people wouldn't agree with the meaning of in common parlance. For example, when she said 'altruism', she meant 'sacrificing without getting anything at all out of it yourself'...even satisfaction and pride from helping people. Of course altruism sounds silly when you put it that way, but she was talking about giving out of guilt or to avoid conflict; like when you donate more than you're comfortable giving to a charity you don't really believe in because someone asked you to and you didn't want to be a dick about it.

The research showing the evolutionary origin of altruism (in the commonly used sense of helping others for no material reward) had not yet been done when Rand was writing; she might have modified her views had she been aware that it's not just a social construct. When her heroes gave in to altruism as she defined it, it was one of their flaws; but her more perfect heroes, like John Galt, start to seem like sociopaths.

Of course, psychologically, it is impossible to separate her philosophy from her history of her family being dispossessed of their business by the Soviet communists. It's understandable that she would eventually come up with something that tried to be the opposite of communism.

[Mister Agenda]

If there's one thing we don't need more of, it's selfishness, it doesn't need further encouragement. There is already a massive surplus.

I would say 'greed' to make the point that it's wanting more than what you deserve that is a problem; but I essentially agree.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

For example, what if I wanted to pay higher taxes for more nationalized charity? Say someone or myself needed it at the time or might need it in the future. This is being altruistic for selfish reasons, but it is altruism none the less.

Yeah, that's actually not true. It isn't logically possible to be altruistic for selfish reasons (one of the synonyms for 'altruism' is 'selflessness'). Altruistic behaviour requires that you help someone and not only receive no benefit, but actually lose something in the process.

In your tax example, for instance, your wanting to pay higher taxes for social services would only be altruism if you rejected those services for yourself. Sort of like giving the medicine you need for your own health to someone else for the sake of their's.

Ayn Rand has a lot of problems, but (as Mister Agenda ably pointed out) a conflict between egoism and altruism wasn't one of them.

Boru

[abaris]

In your tax example, for instance, your wanting to pay higher taxes for social services would only be altruism if you rejected those services for yourself.  Sort of like giving the medicine you need for your own health to someone else for the sake of their's.

Regardless of what she drummed her whole life, it diidn't keep her from going on welfare when she couldn't afford her own treatment. Quite understandable but another disqualifier for her message.

[Angrboda]

'The' problem? I have to pick one?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

In your tax example, for instance, your wanting to pay higher taxes for social services would only be altruism if you rejected those services for yourself.  Sort of like giving the medicine you need for your own health to someone else for the sake of their's.

Regardless of what she drummed her whole life, it diidn't keep her from going on welfare when she couldn't afford her own treatment. Quite understandable but another disqualifier for her message.

'First, secure an independent income. Then practice virtue.' - Greek proverb.

I have no problem with people availing themselves of social services - people want to be healthy, people want to eat. But I agree that it takes a steaming great hypocrite to go about spouting off about 'rugged individualism' and then turn to the evil State for help when the chips are down.

Boru