Isnt God kind of childish/egotistical?

[Tiberius]

Before I answer, what do you classify as evidence?

Whatever the dictionary does. Empirical, logical, reasoned, etc. This is a nice all-round definition:

"that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof."

[Mr Camel]

This looks like it'll get interesting! (I'm just poking into the thread so I get emails and remember to read it!)

Yes, please explain what the fu...dge God/Jesus/bigdaddy brutally punished himself for.. and how it was good for you and why it gives you reason to love/worship him. Personally, the whole idea has me stumped... couldn't the bastard just forgive you for being you? instead of dying to prove (something?) to himself? to you? (HOW?)
I've heard a lot of funny ideas about this... none have satisfied me and I'm very, very open minded to Christian interpretations.. I love listening to them all the time.

And on the topic of evidence that this happened.. and furthermore, Jesus then rose from the dead and all, I trust this evidence wont be the kind that is passed on over generations? or that of a brain fart?
I do hope I'm not asking for too much :S

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

Yes I have read my Bible.
The story of Jericho is fascinating, isnt it? An entire city/town falling because people they yelled and then they killed everyone except the people found in Rahabs house. I find this story morally distasteful, I dont worship a god like that.

Unless there's a second Christian god I don't know about, then yes, that is the god you worship.
I think one of the failings of Christianity is that they consider their god to be a loving god because he murdered his only son. Twice. Because humans are filthy, dirty sinners.

You know, if a woman covered in bruises approached me and told me that the husband she loves really truely loves her once he murdered her son for all of her sins, then I would tell her to seek psychiatric help and get her husband arrested.
That's the logic I see in worshipping the god of the bible.

So I think the main two theories one should either stick too would be:

That's fine, but now you're just picking and choosing which parts of the bible to believe and which not to believe in the very book that's supposed to be the word of god. Even so, you're simply basing his character on the parts of the bible you like and not the parts you don't like. I contend that you have to stretch the logic simply to get him palatable for love (like in my example above.)

[solja247]

Yes, please explain what the fu...dge God/Jesus/bigdaddy brutally punished himself for.. and how it was good for you and why it gives you reason to love/worship him. Personally, the whole idea has me stumped... couldn't the bastard just forgive you for being you? instead of dying to prove (something?) to himself? to you? (HOW?)

I dont know. I am trying to accept the Christian theology that every one needs to be saved from their sins, but I cant buy it.
I dont think God killed Himself, some people argue that. How I see it, is that total serperation from God killed Him. No one can live without total serperation. If one beleives in God. God is the giver of life, without Him, you are dead. But Jesus is God? Jesus became sin, thus He was absolutely connected from God and perhaps His divinity?

I've heard a lot of funny ideas about this... none have satisfied me and I'm very, very open minded to Christian interpretations.. I love listening to them all the time.

Knowledge is power, I am glad you are interested in learnng. I am a skeptical Christian, so my ideas may be heretical or not the norm.

And on the topic of evidence that this happened.. and furthermore, Jesus then rose from the dead and all, I trust this evidence wont be the kind that is passed on over generations? or that of a brain fart?
I do hope I'm not asking for too much

If one could convince me there was no resurrection I would stop being a theist and be a deist. However, I dont want to do a messy job of presenting the evidence, so i will present it after I have done more careful research.

If that god is really a good one, then he wouldn't have let all of humanity up until only 2000 years ago suffer through such horrible rules. Even after the jesus event, has the world been saved? Are there still any unsaved ones happening? New people being born only to eventually be tortured? Why?

I dont believe in eternal torture or that the soul departs when one dies. Biblically and Hebrew theology is that one needed body to have a soul. Anyways, the idea of eternal hell is not found in the Bible, only in exegesis and reading KJV not reading the bible in its own language.

You know, if a woman covered in bruises approached me and told me that the husband she loves really truely loves her once he murdered her son for all of her sins, then I would tell her to seek psychiatric help and get her husband arrested.
That's the logic I see in worshipping the god of the bible.

No. The God of the Bible you see is an idea, concept based on 2,000yrs of evolution. I dont worship a God like that, I wouldnt be a Christian if I did.

What did he die to save you from? Your human nature that he endowed you with in the first place? The hell punishment that he himself chooses to inflict on people?

I dont know. Saved us from living immoral lives? Saved us from our evil desires?
or just set us free? John 8:32 and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free?

There is no evidence at all of anyone named Jesus rising from the dead or performing miracles back then by the way. The first writings of that story were decades and decades AFTER his supposed resurrection. Would you believe it if someone told you "My great grandad said he knew of someone who rose from the dead and was the son of god"?

In Ancient history, decades isnt that long. If it was centuries, then I would agree with you.

It's everywhere in the bible. He's jealous and vengeful. He even orders certain thoughts, making wrong ones a sin. You must worship, adore, praise, love, thank him, etc. There are many nonharmful 'crimes' including thought crimes, among the few harmful crimes, for which he will torture you forever. I'd have to cut and paste almost the entire bible though, to properly show you where it is. I'd be putting almost everything but the 'begat's in here.

I dont think thats very fair. However, Im still looking into this myself.

That's fine, but now you're just picking and choosing which parts of the bible to believe and which not to believe in the very book that's supposed to be the word of god. Even so, you're simply basing his character on the parts of the bible you like and not the parts you don't like. I contend that you have to stretch the logic simply to get him palatable for love (like in my example above.)

Im not at all. You need to understand theology. Read Genesis 1 and 2. Write how you would interpret it. Read it again. Think of another way to interpret it. Read it again. Then write another way to interpret it. Now you understand how diverse and complicated theology is.

[Mr Camel]

Yes, please explain what the fu...dge God/Jesus/bigdaddy brutally punished himself for.. and how it was good for you and why it gives you reason to love/worship him. Personally, the whole idea has me stumped... couldn't the bastard just forgive you for being you? instead of dying to prove (something?) to himself? to you? (HOW?)

I dont know. I am trying to accept the Christian theology that every one needs to be saved from their sins, but I cant buy it.

I dont think God killed Himself, some people argue that. How I see it, is that total serperation from God killed Him. No one can live without total serperation. If one beleives in God. God is the giver of life, without Him, you are dead. But Jesus is God? Jesus became sin, thus He was absolutely connected from God and perhaps His divinity?

You can't accept it because you can't buy it. I think you should listen to yourself.

If God is Jesus and Jesus is God and God sent his son Jesus to die, then yes, he killed himself.

Without God we're dead? I don't feel like a zombie :S
Are you saying Jesus was crucified because he was separated from God? What are you saying?

No. The God of the Bible you see is an idea, concept based on 2,000yrs of evolution. I dont worship a God like that, I wouldnt be a Christian if I did.

Funny how Christians believe that though.. err

In Ancient history, decades isnt that long. If it was centuries, then I would agree with you.

What? Time was different back then?

That's fine, but now you're just picking and choosing which parts of the bible to believe and which not to believe in the very book that's supposed to be the word of god. Even so, you're simply basing his character on the parts of the bible you like and not the parts you don't like. I contend that you have to stretch the logic simply to get him palatable for love (like in my example above.)

Im not at all. You need to understand theology. Read Genesis 1 and 2. Write how you would interpret it. Read it again. Think of another way to interpret it. Read it again. Then write another way to interpret it. Now you understand how diverse and complicated theology is.

You need to understand when logic is most necessary.. you're picking and choosing - doesn't that give you the idea that maybe the whole book is useless?? People don't write books full of contradictions and lies unless they intend to deceive.

[solja247]

You can't accept it because you can't buy it. I think you should listen to yourself.

I dont buy aspects of Christian theology at the moment.

If God is Jesus and Jesus is God and God sent his son Jesus to die, then yes, he killed himself.

How did He kill Himself?

Without God we're dead? I don't feel like a zombie
Are you saying Jesus was crucified because he was separated from God? What are you saying?

Indeed. Without God all life ceases (If one beleives in god). Just because you reject God doesnt mean He rejects you.

What? Time was different back then?

No. If something was written in the 1980s and it was a secondary source of someones life back in the 1940s, we would say thats not very credible. But Ancient history is different...

You need to understand when logic is most necessary.. you're picking and choosing - doesn't that give you the idea that maybe the whole book is useless?? People don't write books full of contradictions and lies unless they intend to deceive.

I was telling my friend one day that the trinity makes sense and is completely illogical. He told me that I was missing something, logic. Me and you and everyone else in the Western world (maybe the whole world?) Have adopted Greek logic. The OT was written with a different logic, Hebrew Block Logic. Which is rather complicated. (A great example of this is Western Christians in the 3rd century thought, for one to be holy, they should abstain from sex. However, in the OT there is nothing wrong with sex, a gift from God, but it can be bad). Hebrew logic is known to have a lot of paradoxes. So when we read the OT we have to becareful a) what are we trying to read into it without letting the context and story speak for itself.
b) What logic are we using? Greek or Hebrew? We need to look at the OT with Hebrew logic.

So its very complicated. Another thing to think about is 'Poetic lisence'.

[Mr Camel]

If God is Jesus and Jesus is God and God sent his son Jesus to die, then yes, he killed himself.

How did He kill Himself?

You tell me... though he IS God isn't he? Omnipotent and all...

Just because you reject God doesnt mean He rejects you.

What a silly thing to say...

If something was written in the 1980s and it was a secondary source of someones life back in the 1940s, we would say thats not very credible.

There's more to it... you wouldn't simply dismiss a source. You've got to study the author of that source before you determine how reliable it is. You've got to find out how the author got his sources.. If he cites nothing but word of mouth from generations and villagers, you wouldn't submit him as a reliable historian.

But Ancient history is different...

Only in the sense that the further back in time you go, the harder it is to verify a source.

I was telling my friend one day that the trinity makes sense and is completely illogical. He told me that I was missing something, logic. Me and you and everyone else in the Western world (maybe the whole world?) Have adopted Greek logic. The OT was written with a different logic, Hebrew Block Logic. Which is rather complicated. (A great example of this is Western Christians in the 3rd century thought, for one to be holy, they should abstain from sex. However, in the OT there is nothing wrong with sex, a gift from God, but it can be bad). Hebrew logic is known to have a lot of paradoxes. So when we read the OT we have to becareful a) what are we trying to read into it without letting the context and story speak for itself.
b) What logic are we using? Greek or Hebrew? We need to look at the OT with Hebrew logic.

So its very complicated. Another thing to think about is 'Poetic lisence'.

You have a good point - Adjust your logic to the bible and it'll make sense!
The problem with that is if you used such logic throughout your daily life, you'd end up in jail.

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So in other words, don't take this book seriously and don't put it in reach of your children.
The Bible is the historical accounts of many unreliable, clearly disturbed historians. Nuff said.

[solja247]

You tell me... though he IS God isn't he? Omnipotent and all...

I tried to explain it, but I can explain it to you again, if you want.

What a silly thing to say...

Hows it silly?

There's more to it... you wouldn't simply dismiss a source. You've got to study the author of that source before you determine how reliable it is. You've got to find out how the author got his sources.. If he cites nothing but word of mouth from generations and villagers, you wouldn't submit him as a reliable historian.

Why not? Josephus wrote down things he saw and heard, he is considered a very reliable historian.

You have a good point - Adjust your logic to the bible and it'll make sense!
The problem with that is if you used such logic throughout your daily life, you'd end up in jail.

I never said that. To understand how one is truly to interpret, one should think like a Jew, or a rabbi. They used different logic, im not saying make things up. Just understand the context and how to interpret something.

[Mr Camel]

You tell me... though he IS God isn't he? Omnipotent and all...

I tried to explain it, but I can explain it to you again, if you want.

What a silly thing to say...

Hows it silly?

There's more to it... you wouldn't simply dismiss a source. You've got to study the author of that source before you determine how reliable it is. You've got to find out how the author got his sources.. If he cites nothing but word of mouth from generations and villagers, you wouldn't submit him as a reliable historian.

Why not? Josephus wrote down things he saw and heard, he is considered a very reliable historian.

You have a good point - Adjust your logic to the bible and it'll make sense!
The problem with that is if you used such logic throughout your daily life, you'd end up in jail.

I never said that. To understand how one is truly to interpret, one should think like a Jew, or a rabbi. They used different logic, im not saying make things up. Just understand the context and how to interpret something.

---

There's more to it... you wouldn't simply dismiss a source. You've got to study the author of that source before you determine how reliable it is. You've got to find out how the author got his sources.. If he cites nothing but word of mouth from generations and villagers, you wouldn't submit him as a reliable historian.

Why not? Josephus wrote down things he saw and heard, he is considered a very reliable historian.

Sorry I didn't explain it enough - You have to also check with other sources who have written about the same accounts to make sure they line up. Everyone in the bible is contradicted by someone.. several times. Maybe not everyone.. I'm not entirely sure?

[Paul the Human]

Hi, solja. Forgive me for butting in with a small tangent, but something you said inspired me to ask you a question.

If one could convince me there was no resurrection I would stop being a theist and be a deist.

Okay, so you believe that the Jesus character in the Bible.2 died and then resurrected to then ascend into heaven, correct? That belief makes you a Christian/theist (e.g. a believer in a personal god). If someone were able to convince you that the the resurrection of Jesus probably never happened, you would cease believing in a personal (Christian) god and instead believe in an impersonal creator deity. That is what you are saying, right?

That implies that belief in a 'god' is not being questioned. The existence of a god is accepted as true and not subject to your self-proclaimed skepticism. My question is: Why not?