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RE: The Problem of Evil (XXVII)
June 16, 2016 at 2:31 pm
(June 16, 2016 at 1:42 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (June 16, 2016 at 1:31 pm)SteveII Wrote: 2) As you correctly pointed out, he would have knowledge of his perfectly informed future actions so there would be no way to change his mind Wait....what? Why would -he- lack free will but we have it..........for that same reason, under precisely the same situation.....?
For starters, the other two points I mentioned. Secondly God knowing what we would freely choose in no way affects our freely choosing to do it. Free will is not the ability to choose differently in identical circumstances but rather not being caused to do something by causes other than yourself.
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RE: The Problem of Evil (XXVII)
June 16, 2016 at 2:35 pm
(This post was last modified: June 16, 2016 at 2:35 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 16, 2016 at 2:31 pm)SteveII Wrote: (June 16, 2016 at 1:42 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Wait....what? Why would -he- lack free will but we have it..........for that same reason, under precisely the same situation.....?
For starters, the other two points I mentioned. Secondly God knowing what we would freely choose in no way affects our freely choosing to do it. -but it effects his, to the point where he doesn't have any?
Quote:Free will is not the ability to choose differently in identical circumstances but rather not being caused to do something by causes other than yourself.
Then if it's gods own nature holding him to his choices......is anything other than himself at play, and wouldn't he have free will..by that standard?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The Problem of Evil (XXVII)
June 16, 2016 at 2:40 pm
(June 16, 2016 at 2:35 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (June 16, 2016 at 2:31 pm)SteveII Wrote: For starters, the other two points I mentioned. Secondly God knowing what we would freely choose in no way affects our freely choosing to do it. -but it effects his, to the point where he doesn't have any?
Quote:Free will is not the ability to choose differently in identical circumstances but rather not being caused to do something by causes other than yourself.
Then if it's gods own nature holding him to his choices......is anything other than himself at play, and wouldn't he have free will..by that standard?
Acting according to his nature are limits to his actions. Like I said, what catalyst would there be for God to change his mind?
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RE: The Problem of Evil (XXVII)
June 16, 2016 at 2:42 pm
(June 16, 2016 at 2:40 pm)SteveII Wrote: Like I said, what catalyst would there be for God to change his mind?
What catalyst would there be for a god to have a desire to do anything?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
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God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
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Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
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RE: The Problem of Evil (XXVII)
June 16, 2016 at 2:48 pm
(This post was last modified: June 16, 2016 at 2:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 16, 2016 at 2:40 pm)SteveII Wrote: (June 16, 2016 at 2:35 pm)Rhythm Wrote: -but it effects his, to the point where he doesn't have any?
Then if it's gods own nature holding him to his choices......is anything other than himself at play, and wouldn't he have free will..by that standard?
Acting according to his nature are limits to his actions. Like I said, what catalyst would there be for God to change his mind?
So what, as long as his nature is doing the limiting....you just told us that free will is not being caused to do something by causes other than yourself? WTF Steve? Now you want to talk about changing ones mind but apparently, in human beings, being unable to change ones mind or do differently doesn't remove free will.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The Problem of Evil (XXVII)
June 16, 2016 at 3:16 pm
(June 16, 2016 at 2:31 pm)SteveII Wrote: Free will is not the ability to choose differently in identical circumstances but rather not being caused to do something by causes other than yourself.
That's one definition of free will. It happens to be the compatibilist position which is that our choices are determined, yet simultaneously 'free' in this special sense. Is that the sense in which you are using the term free will, or do you have a more libertarian view of free will?
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RE: The Problem of Evil (XXVII)
June 16, 2016 at 3:42 pm
(June 16, 2016 at 2:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (June 16, 2016 at 2:40 pm)SteveII Wrote: Acting according to his nature are limits to his actions. Like I said, what catalyst would there be for God to change his mind?
So what, as long as his nature is doing the limiting....you just told us that free will is not being caused to do something by causes other than yourself? WTF Steve? Now you want to talk about changing ones mind but apparently, in human beings, being unable to change ones mind or do differently doesn't remove free will.
You are using my sentences that clearly apply to God and apply them to humans and then my sentences that clearly apply to humans to God. Let me change the words. God's special, unique, not shared with human attributes prevent certain actions. For example, moral perfection = no immoral choices; omniscience = no changing his mind, etc. Since we do not have those attributes, the comparison does not stay together.
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RE: The Problem of Evil (XXVII)
June 16, 2016 at 3:45 pm
(This post was last modified: June 16, 2016 at 3:49 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Yes...yes I am.........and that, you think..is a problem? There's nothing unique in the situation you described with regards to -free will-.
God knows his future actions and he cant change them, he's the only thing causing him to do this or that..and he doesn't have free will.
God knows our future actions and we can't change them, we're the only thing causing us to do this or that...and we -do- have free will?
This just doesn't work....and maybe you -should- apply things a little more consistently?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The Problem of Evil (XXVII)
June 16, 2016 at 4:01 pm
(June 16, 2016 at 3:16 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: (June 16, 2016 at 2:31 pm)SteveII Wrote: Free will is not the ability to choose differently in identical circumstances but rather not being caused to do something by causes other than yourself.
That's one definition of free will. It happens to be the compatibilist position which is that our choices are determined, yet simultaneously 'free' in this special sense. Is that the sense in which you are using the term free will, or do you have a more libertarian view of free will?
I don't believe my statement was specific enough to identify with a particular view (I think it could apply to either position). However, I would take the libertarian view of free will. I find Louis Molina and WLC's development of God's middle knowledge to be a convincing way to reconcile God's foreknowledge with our free will.
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