Ehh... free will?

[RozKek]

One can also say we're only conscious observers. Even though it is my neural net doesn't mean I ultimately decided it, because I didn't decide how the neurons in my neural net should interact. Like Alex said it's also dependant on how "I" am defined. However you defined I as my brain I assume. However, you say you are your neural net (brain) therefore it is your choice however you don't decide when you get hungry, when you feel pain, when you get the urge to pee, your reflexes, your knee jerk reactions etc but you are still your brain and those things have origins in the brain. Same can be said for your decisions, you are your neural net but the decision isn't under your control the same way your urge to pee isn't under your control.

My brains involuntary actions/reactions may not be under conscious control but it is still my brain making sub/un conscious decisions for my survival. My conscious brain can over ride some of those activities (short term) if I choose to. You have that ability also.

My conscious decisions are under my control, my neural nets control. That part is the part that I consider free will.

BTW, I didn't define I as brain, I said "part of". My brain is only part of "I". Also, if by "knee jerk" you mean deep tendon reflex, that does not involve your brain at all but peripheral nerve function.

Sounds like we will have to agree to disagree. A choice.

But even then it is ultimately not your choice to choose to override some of those activities. Why did you/what caused you to want to override those activities? Your will, but it wasn't your decision to want/will that.

[brewer]

My brains involuntary actions/reactions may not be under conscious control but it is still my brain making sub/un conscious decisions for my survival. My conscious brain can over ride some of those activities (short term) if I choose to. You have that ability also.

My conscious decisions are under my control, my neural nets control. That part is the part that I consider free will.

BTW, I didn't define I as brain, I said "part of". My brain is only part of "I". Also, if by "knee jerk" you mean deep tendon reflex, that does not involve your brain at all but peripheral nerve function.

Sounds like we will have to agree to disagree. A choice.

But even then it is ultimately not your choice to choose to override some of those activities. Why did you/what caused you to want to override those activities? Your will, but it wasn't your decision to want/will that.

You are so incorrect. A choice?

[RozKek]

But even then it is ultimately not your choice to choose to override some of those activities. Why did you/what caused you to want to override those activities? Your will, but it wasn't your decision to want/will that.

You are so incorrect. A choice?

Ok. Can you defy causality by deciding to do something? Can you voluntarily order your neurons to freely do something i.e during that period defy causality and interact freely?

[brewer]

You are so incorrect. A choice?

Ok. Can you defy causality by deciding to do something? Can you voluntarily order your neurons to freely do something i.e during that period defy causality and interact freely?

Maybe you have not heard me say this before. For me, free will exists on a sliding scale and is dependent on set and setting.

Which part of "agree to disagree" did you choose not to understand? Of my free will I choose to no longer participate. (or is that some random causality thingy?)

[The Grand Nudger]

Sometimes, we label things as free will when those things are the set of "other x" not involving what we perceive to be involuntary activities.  That our mind is no more voluntary or controlled than those activities escapes us, in considering it. If the ability to make a selection between alternatives were free will.....it's trivially true that free will exists...not just in us or other animals, but also in inanimate objects.

[Edwardo Piet]

It's a desperate interpretation to label that as "free will".

Science has already given multiple experiments that says the unconscious part of our brain always makes a decision before we are aware and sometimes as much as 7 seconds before we are aware of it

[Edwardo Piet]

Classic journalism, catchy title, insist it is somehow relevant to the research and then dismiss it all in the last paragraph:

Rather than using this information to contribute to the argument over whether or not humans really have free will, the researchers hope to one day find a way to make use of their findings in order to help people control their decision-making – such as those with eating disorders or addictions.

Because it has no fucking bearing on free will.

Anyway bedtime for me, night folks.

[GrandizerII]

Ok. Can you defy causality by deciding to do something? Can you voluntarily order your neurons to freely do something i.e during that period defy causality and interact freely?

Maybe you have not heard me say this before. For me, free will exists on a sliding scale and is dependent on set and setting.

Which part of "agree to disagree" did you choose not to understand? Of my free will I choose to no longer participate. (or is that some random causality thingy?)

Yesss, in my opinion, more appropriate to look at stuff like free will, intelligence, consciousness as on a spectrum, but not necessarily applicable to all entities in existence.

One may just as well argue that we aren't really alive. Are we really, really living? We just happen to move around a lot, but then again, so does water. We don't consider water to be alive. So does this mean it's not reasonable to say we have life?

[The Grand Nudger]

Moving around does not satisfy the conditions for life.  It would be a pointless argument.  Similarly, making choices does not satisfy the conditions for free will.  

It's not really an issue of whether or not we seem to be doing x, in either case, it's that the relationship and means of inference are missing or insufficient. We don't even know what "acting like we have free will" would look like, as we do in the case of "acting like it's alive".

[RozKek]

Ok. Can you defy causality by deciding to do something? Can you voluntarily order your neurons to freely do something i.e during that period defy causality and interact freely?

Maybe you have not heard me say this before. For me, free will exists on a sliding scale and is dependent on set and setting.

Which part of "agree to disagree" did you choose not to understand? Of my free will I choose to no longer participate. (or is that some random causality thingy?)

First you must demonstrate how free will can exist before talking about the variables that can affect it. If the brain is either causal or random there is no free will ultimately unless you can somehow break causality and order your neurons to move independently, but even there is an issue that I can get into. It cannot be dependant on set and setting if it doesn't exist.

I was interested in this discussion. However if you don't want to discuss we can end it here, in that case the above paragraph were my final words, don't reply to them.