Where is Jesus?

[Jaysyn]

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I do know the story, Mac. What I'm telling you is that the story is utter bullshit.

Crucifixion was the penalty reserved for rebels and/or slaves. When the Romans crucified someone it was to send a message. That message was "DON'T FUCK WITH US." Common criminals were dispatched in the arena for the amusement of the crowd. It was far more cost-effective.

Here again we have a case of special pleading. "Oh, but in this case things were different."

"Mark" specifies no criminal charge. Neither does "John." Neither does "Matthew." "Luke" actually claims that Pilate states that both he and Herod found him "innocent." IN their zeal to paint the Jews as the persecutors xtians actually invent a custom of releasing a criminal at Passover which is attested to nowhere in 1,000 years of Roman law.

Face it. This shit is made up.

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10 points for trying.

I dont want to enter this debate, I need to do a lot more research. So what scholars arguement are you using?

Oh please, please, please get in a history debate with Minimalist.

[Godscreated]

Clearly you dont know the story.

I do know the story, Mac. What I'm telling you is that the story is utter bullshit.

Crucifixion was the penalty reserved for rebels and/or slaves. When the Romans crucified someone it was to send a message. That message was "DON'T FUCK WITH US." Common criminals were dispatched in the arena for the amusement of the crowd. It was far more cost-effective.

Min please do a cost-effective analysis for us to see so we know you are not making up ideas. It seems to me that it would cost the Romans more to ship someone back to anywhere, feed and shelter them than to put someone on a cross and use three nails or even cheaper bind them with hempen rope and leave them to hang until dead. By the way the Roman soldiers broke the leggs of those who were crucified so they would not last long, so that the Roman goverment would not have to pay the soldiers overtime.

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Not talking metaphorically here ie in my heart etc. Is he in heaven? Is that where Yahweh is? Is it a supernatural realm? If the answers are yes then how was he raised bodily and therefore materially into an immaterial realm with no time nor space for a material body to exist?

You are correct He is with YHWH because He is YHWH. You think you have trouble understanding how Christ can be fully man and fully God try to get your head around this Christ is setting beside Himself. Now on to what the scriptures say about Christ after his ressurection, He entered rooms with no window and locked doors and was not heard when He entered even though the room was full of people. Seems to me He can go anywhere He likes.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

By the way the Roman soldiers broke the leggs of those who were crucified so they would not last long, so that the Roman goverment would not have to pay the soldiers overtime.

Overtime? You think Roman soldiers were unionised and were paid at an hourly rate? They were often not paid at all for months. Even soldiers in modern armies are not paid overtime .

Normal practice was to nail up a miscreant, ,go away and come back perhaps 3 or 4 days later,to reclaim the nails, which were hand made and expensive,so were re used many times.

The Romans crucified thousands of Jews during their occupation of Judea. The charge sedition was almost certainly broad under Roman law,with the local governor having a fair bit of discretion. If local Jewish officials had accused Jesus of sedition,it's likely the Roman would have been happy to crucify him,if only to keep the peace.No skin off their arse. (Jesus was not a Roman citizen,so had few rights)

[Minimalist]

Min please do a cost-effective analysis for us to see so we know you are not making up ideas

Let's see...throw some asshole into the arena and let him be killed by

a. another criminal

-or

b. a wild animal


(Should he survive "a." a guard would finish him off with a sword thrust which cost exactly NOTHING.)

As opposed to arranging an execution detail and posting a guard until the crucified victim died after (usually) a couple of days - which makes fucking jesus something of a pussy for only lasting a few hours.

I'd say it was no contest. Plus, the executed criminal gained the provider of the games some popularity points.

I realize most of you xtian shits get your concept of Roman history from Hollywood. Trust me, as usual Hollywood gets it wrong.




"the Roman goverment would not have to pay the soldiers overtime."

Um, I hope that is your attempt at humor.

[tackattack]

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Not talking metaphorically here ie in my heart etc. Is he in heaven? Is that where Yahweh is? Is it a supernatural realm? If the answers are yes then how was he raised bodily and therefore materially into an immaterial realm with no time nor space for a material body to exist?

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In response to only the original post:

To believe in Jesus' ascension (as well as Elijah's and Elisha's) is to believe his physical material body was ascended to somewhere. Very little details on an actual ascension after the 3 days, 40 days of 5 hundred something days (depending on your literalist interpretation) is present, but it is referenced as an event in the Bible. God exists in Heaven and Jesus supposedly sits at his right hand until judgement to make a place for us.
To go bodily from one realm (physical) to another ( immaterial) realm, IMO, would either be similar to an alien transporter from sci-fi or raising and then blinking into another dimension. Either way there would have to be either a transcendant event that metamorphs the matter into an insubstantial type of matter (I'm guessing like a hadron collider where they're just dispersed) or provisions made for the physical needs of a body. The former is far more likely. In conclusion, IMO I'd say that if his physical body did rise to a point, and then there were bright lights (shinging angels) that a transcendant event took place to remove the needs of his physical body thus enabling his to remain all spirit and enter Heaven the same state as he left.

[Captain Scarlet]

Thanks for your response tackattack. I think your anaologies fail as every analogy we have can only reference the material world eg hadron collider and not the immaterial world. I would assert the immaterial does not exist you may assert it does. However I think we can agree that your intersting views are speculation. How can a material bring transition to an immaterial one? I'm afraid appealing to souls or spirits won't cut it here. Substance dualism (the appeal to an independent soul or spirit) has been roundly refuted. One thing we can know with certainty is that the mind and brain are connected and you cannot have a mind without a brain. There have been thousands of experiments and examples which testify to this eg people with brain injuries whose personlities change, clearly if their mind was independent there personlity would be unaffected. Christians argue you can have a disembodied mind in the case of god which amounts to mere special pleading and reduces the immaterial realm to a haunted house.

[solja247]

Oh please, please, please get in a history debate with Minimalist.

With pleasure. But not at the moment, I need to do more study into the Historicity of Jesus.

[tackattack]

Of course the mind is dependant of the brain. It's the material ingest point for all of our sensory input, bodily control and memory. The mind is also affected by electical influences and magnetic fields. It's also affected by experience because a brain can be influenced by subconscious thoughts, and subliminal input. It has not been proven however, that the primary sense of self is solely an exclusive aspect of the mind. In fact there are some reported cases of brain dead individuals coming back to life. While some may have experienced personality changes, if the brain were the sole dependency of the mind, there would be no sense of self or functioning personality or memory after brain death. Bottom line I don't claim the mind is independant of the brain, everything we do affects our percieved reality, but it's not the only dependency and it's unlikely that personality and self could be stored in a brain after brain death. This makes it unlikely in my mind (pun intended ) that the brain is the sole storage medium for what we identify as self.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Oh please, please, please get in a history debate with Minimalist.

With pleasure. But not at the moment, I need to do more study into the Historicity of Jesus.

Lots of luck with that.


I've never come across any evidence for the historicity of Jesus. I'm not claiming there was NOT a man called something like Yeshua/Yoshua Yosef in C1st ce Judea,or that he was a wondering rabbi with a band of followers,or that he was executed by the Romans for sedition. I think it's reasonable to say 'might have been' or even 'probably was' but its is not reasonable to make a positive claim. There is no evidence to support such a claim. However,there is little doubt in my mind that the Jesus of the NT is myth.

I hope the nature of any evidence you find is of a higher calibre than the fatuous nonsense about Josephus.

[annatar]

-Where is Jesus?
-in the face of every child.
(I know it sucks but I had to do it!)