Faith and achievement

[Jesster]

I'll respond to the useful bits of that because the second bit isn't relevant.

What I see you doing is using trust and calling it faith. Everything you have described relies on people taking previous experiences that have been reliable in the past and trusting that they will work similarly in the future. Just because not all of it is entirely explained to them doesn't mean they are using faith.

If you want to equivocate trust and faith, then it's not possible for you and I to have a useful conversation. Faith may be a subset of trust, but that doesn't mean you get to use the wider definition.

I don't think you get it, and I think benny described it imperfectly. It's not really about trust. It's actually a sort of knowing. It's that moment when you do something, and then your mind starts giving you the answers in a weird way, it works extremely efficiently, you know exactly what and how to do it to achieve what you want in the moment.

Like I said, the problem is in his definition. I get what he is pointing at. He's just attributing the results to the wrong thing.

[mlmooney89]

What you are talking about is mostly motor skills and their ability to become 2nd nature. Our bodies learn a skill and it becomes instinctual therfore our mind is left open to do other things. I personally am very clumsy so I do not have faith at all in my motor skills. I think Jesster is right in that it is more like trust. We trust that our bodies will remember these skills with little thought. I do agree that human nature is amazing but I wouldn't label our abilities as having faith in our own skills nor would I say I pray to my brain seeing how half the time my body likes to malfunction. Lol

[bennyboy]

Like I said, the problem is in his definition. I get what he is pointing at. He's just attributing the results to the wrong thing.

I explained why I used the word "faith." First of all, my definition is fine-- it's one of the dictionary definitions; please don't tell me what definitions I "get" to use-- it's my thread, and I'll use whatever definition I want, so fuck off about that. Second, there's an overlap with religious faith. I believe that it is possible for religious faith to have the right psychological effect to allow someone to get good results.

Let's take an example-- young adults are often hyperconfident-- like, way, way beyond their actual capacity. And yet, it is this belief in their future greatness, for which there really is no evidence, which allows at least SOME young people to maximize their potential. They "feel" that there is something special about themselves, and it becomes kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. For sure, if the same young people didn't have this faith in themselves, they'd be much less likely to have the focus and intensity which allows them to do great things.

Now, let me say again that I personally have faith in my brain. While I really have no certainty that I'll ever be in the "zone" again to the degree I have in the past, I very much believe in the possibility, and I hope for it to manifest in my life. "Faith" is a perfectly reasonable term to use, because it's a conditional belief-- if my brain/god sees fit to grant me that experience again, I'd appreciate it very much, and until then, I will hold strong in my mind the possibility that it will.

I can say that it is this hope that keeps me playing piano, keeps me playing chess, and so on. Without it, I'd just say, "Meh I'm not that good at piano, and I never will be," and wander off to watch Oprah reruns or something.

[bennyboy]

What you are talking about is mostly motor skills and their ability to become 2nd nature. Our bodies learn a skill and it becomes instinctual therfore our mind is left open to do other things. I personally am very clumsy so I do not have faith at all in my motor skills. I think Jesster is right in that it is more like trust. We trust that our bodies will remember these skills with little thought. I do agree that human nature is amazing but I wouldn't label our abilities as having faith in our own skills nor would I say I pray to my brain seeing how half the time my body likes to malfunction. Lol

Okay, let me ask you this.  Have you had times when you felt much LESS clumsy than normal, and have you sometimes wondered how you arrived at that state?

[Excited Penguin]

Same thing for me benny, only it lasted between the time I was thirteen and fifteen, or something like that, and it was mostly about philosophy instead of, in your case, the piano and chess.

I will never ever be able to describe how fucking smart I used to be. It was beyond insane.

[bennyboy]

And now you are giving the placebo affect more credit than it is worth. Just because someone is able to calm themselves, doesn't mean that there is something special about their ritual. It means they are calm and they can focus more on the task at hand. There are non-ritualistic secular methods that have nothing to do with faith that achieve the same thing.

No doubt. However, if you look at things like guided visualization, meditation, hypnosis, etc. you have a similar process-- you are trying to rewrite the world view such that the brain will perform better. But this is not an evidence-based process. The belief comes from a choice to believe, not from convincing evidence that the person can do whatever it is that they want to do.

[Jesster]

Like I said, the problem is in his definition. I get what he is pointing at. He's just attributing the results to the wrong thing.

I explained why I used the word "faith."  First of all, my definition is fine-- it's one of the dictionary definitions.  Second, there's an overlap with religious faith.  I believe that it is possible for religious faith to have the right psychological effect to allow someone to get good results.

Let's take an example-- young adults are often hyperconfident-- like, way, way beyond their actual capacity.  And yet, it is this belief in their future greatness, for which there really is no evidence, which allows at least SOME young people to maximize their potential.  They "feel" that there is something special about themselves, and it becomes kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.  For sure, if the same young people didn't have this faith in themselves, they'd be much less likely to have the focus and intensity which allows them to do great things.

Now, let me say again that I personally have faith in my brain.  While I really have no certainty that I'll ever be in the "zone" again to the degree I have in the past, I very much believe in the possibility, and I hope for it to manifest in my life.  "Faith" is a perfectly reasonable term to use, because it's a conditional belief-- if my brain/god sees fit to grant me that experience again, I'd appreciate it very much, and until then, I will hold strong in my mind the possibility that it will.

I can say that it is this hope that keeps me playing piano, keeps me playing chess, and so on.  Without it, I'd just say, "Meh I'm not that good at piano, and I never will be," and wander off to watch Oprah reruns or something.

Alright, back to the definition. It's good form to use the most accurate word for what you are trying to describe. Trust is the most accurate word in this case. Faith only loosely hovers around the vicinity. They are similar words, but faith isn't quite the same. You can keep asserting it, but I'm not going to make the same stretch.

This is still the case in your latest example. Trust works within the range of what you know is possible based on previous data. If you are confident based on what you know of the reality around you, it is trust, even if you are just trusting in yourself. Once you expand that trust beyond data that you have picked up in your experiences, only then are you relying on faith. This does not line up with your assertions.

[Jesster]

And now you are giving the placebo affect more credit than it is worth. Just because someone is able to calm themselves, doesn't mean that there is something special about their ritual. It means they are calm and they can focus more on the task at hand. There are non-ritualistic secular methods that have nothing to do with faith that achieve the same thing.

No doubt.  However, if you look at things like guided visualization, meditation, hypnosis, etc. you have a similar process-- you are trying to rewrite the world view such that the brain will perform better.  But this is not an evidence-based process.  The belief comes from a choice to believe, not from convincing evidence that the person can do whatever it is that they want to do.

No. Helping your brain perform better has been tested. There is evidence for this process. This is trust.

[bennyboy]

Same thing for me benny, only it lasted between the time I was thirteen and fifteen, or something like that, and it was mostly about philosophy instead of, in your case, the piano and chess.

I will never ever be able to describe how fucking smart I used to be. It was beyond insane.

Yes, to be honest, I think I hit the "zone" less often than I did around that age.  But that's part of my point.  I think at that age you don't have evidence about your abilities-- so you choose to believe in yourself, and your brain falls in place.  Once you've gotten older, you've made mistakes, had failings, and in general have more "realistic" views about your capabilities.

But I believe even an old guy like me can learn to drop those "realistic" views and get in touch with my real potential, whatever that is (or isn't!).

[bennyboy]

No. Helping your brain perform better has been tested. There is evidence for this process. This is trust.

Religion and Sport-- BBC