Determinism and fatalism are the same thing. Don't start me on that again.
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Current time: June 20, 2024, 8:11 am
| Poll: Does free will exist? This poll is closed. |
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| No, I'm a hard determinist. | 8 | 53.33% | |
| Yes, I'm a compatibilist. | 7 | 46.67% | |
| Total | 15 vote(s) | 100% | |
| * You voted for this item. | [Show Results] |
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Free Will
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Really? I would have thought it possible to feel fatalistic precisely because nothing was necessary or urgent. Some people want there to be a plot, or some markers, anything but free falling will.
 RE: Free Will
August 21, 2016 at 1:35 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2016 at 1:37 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 21, 2016 at 11:34 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: Determinism and fatalism are the same thing. Don't start me on that again. They're not. Fatalism is the position that -no matter what you do- x will happen. Determinism refers to what you do -as- a contributing factor to what will happen. One is a subjugation of all things to fate, whereas the other is an explanation of current (or future) events by reference to individual and collective causal attributions.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
 (August 21, 2016 at 1:35 pm)Rhythm Wrote:(August 21, 2016 at 11:34 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: Determinism and fatalism are the same thing. Don't start me on that again. Let me put it differently. Fatalism may be different from determinism, but it is the correct position to take concerning how our universe functions. Given that hard determinism in true, it is very much true that no matter what you (think you will) do, x will happen. You certainly have to make the connection in your own mind, I can't force you to do it. The two ideas are separated semantically for a reason, that doesn't mean they aren't both true descriptions of the world. RE: Free Will
August 21, 2016 at 1:58 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2016 at 2:06 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
No, EP...given that hard determinism is true, what you do is -why- events happen. Whereas in fatalism, what you do is irrelevent, the event will happen regardless. A simple and rough example.
Determinism: X happens because :insert long string of causality here: of which you are a component Fatalism: X happens, because it is fated regardless of the above. If a long string of causally deterministic events that would produce a different outcome happen......the fated x -still- happens. Under determinism, things like chaos or randomness are or could be included, under fatalism, both - and causal chains- are excluded. There is only one cause. Fate. Christian predeterminism is, for example, fatalistic but not deterministic.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(August 21, 2016 at 1:16 pm)RozKek Wrote:(August 21, 2016 at 11:34 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: Determinism and fatalism are the same thing. Don't start me on that again. Determinism = Everything is predetermined. Fatalism = You can't change the future. In other words, the future is already written = you can't change it. Seems legit. (August 21, 2016 at 1:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No, EP...given that hard determinism is true, what you do is -why- events happens. Whereas in fatalism, what you do is irrelevent, the event will happen regardless. Rhythm, I really hate it when I have to direct someone to a dictionary definition, it's always a low point in the conversation. I hope you'll be gracious about it, though. Go read what fatalism means. RE: Free Will
August 21, 2016 at 2:07 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2016 at 2:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 21, 2016 at 1:59 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: Determinism = Everything is predetermined. That is -not- determinism. In fact, it's fatalism. Quote:Fatalism = You can't change the future.That -is- fatalism If you had referred to a dictionary, you wouldn't be babbling on about this....so try another route. The distinction isn;t even subtle. For things to be deterministic conditions must be met. For things to be fatalistic, fate must simply apply. Things are not "pre-determined" in determinism unless conditions are met - and those conditions can't -be- met until the very -moment- of the event. In fatalism there are no conditions to be met, no moments of reference, only fate.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Delicious irony, though I'm sure it will be lost on you EP...is that determinism gives us a means to predict an uncertain future...whereas fatalism leaves us no means to predict a certain future.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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