Reverse Pascals Wager

[Captain Scarlet]

Well surely Heaven and Hell has to be subjective otherwise they are pointless as concepts.

A masochist enjoys pain (maybe not absolute torture though... but pain at least), so pain for him/her is pleasure. Hence why pleasure is subjective. And so is Heaven and Hell then.

If we are to define Heaven as "Eternal Bliss" and Hell as "Eternal torture", then since pleasure and pain are subjective, since emotions themselves are subjective, of course it's relative to the person somewhat.

So I agree with your analysis of your own argument. It runs contrary to my understanding of the concept of heaven and hell which seem to be destinations with objective proerties to me. Having said that I guess we can both agree theconcepts are vaccuous and are wildly open to any interpretation you care to put on them.

[Edwardo Piet]

Well yes, Heaven described in the Bible could be thought of as mind numbingly boringly and far from heavenly. Praising God doesn't sound exactly ecstatic! Ugh.

But if we start from the premise that Heaven just equates to absolute eternal bliss then maybe God forces us to feel absolute bliss for all eternity whilst we worship him? We can't help but be ecstatic maybe? Like he hypnotizes us into ecstasy with his all-powerful bullshit.

[Captain Scarlet]

@godschild

"Why do you presume you can set the rules for God's court. God has already set the rules and guess what you can not get in on your own merit it will not stand up to God's rules. There are two ways one can enter heaven.
1) You can be judged by God's perfect standard by your own merit. (Fail)
2) You can allow Christ and His perfect life to stand in your place and be jugded for you. (Pass)
Islam and Christianity do not share the same God."

We presume from the foundational texts of your religion and the utterances of its leaders. The god you worship is happy for you to live a life of total depravity and then 'find him' just before you 'pop your clogs', and hey presto your in heaven. Lead a virtuous life but worship another god or not one at all and you're in shit street. By what standard is that just or merciful.



ps still no response to my challenge around forced love.

[Godscreated]

@godschild

"Why do you presume you can set the rules for God's court. God has already set the rules and guess what you can not get in on your own merit it will not stand up to God's rules. There are two ways one can enter heaven.
1) You can be judged by God's perfect standard by your own merit. (Fail)
2) You can allow Christ and His perfect life to stand in your place and be jugded for you. (Pass)
Islam and Christianity do not share the same God."

We presume from the foundational texts of your religion and the utterances of its leaders. The god you worship is happy for you to live a life of total depravity and then 'find him' just before you 'pop your clogs', and hey presto your in heaven. Lead a virtuous life but worship another god or not one at all and you're in shit street. By what standard is that just or merciful.



ps still no response to my challenge around forced love.

You have no true understanding of the scriptures so how is it you think you have the authority to define them.

Yes I did you need to read and then understand that because I see things differently doesn't mean I did not answer your question.

[Captain Scarlet]

@godschild

You have no true understanding of the scriptures so how is it you think you have the authority to define them.
Yes I did you need to read and then understand that because I see things differently doesn't mean I did not answer your question.

I freely admit I don't understand scripture, much like you have no understanding of evolution. The main difference being evolution is true and useful. I would also venture that nobody understands the scriptures because they contradict our hard earned knowledge and are internally inconsistent. Do you claim you do know?

And no you have not answered my challenge at all. You claim god gave us free will and wants us yo use it to come to fellowship with him. I have pointed out texts that state god is trying to compel us. You can't dance around on this. The words are very clear and speak for themselves. If you claim those versus mean something else you have a huge task to invalidate the interpretations of millions of others and demonstrate, why yours is right and why god needs to be so cryptic.

[Minimalist]

Islam and Christianity do not share the same God.

They don't? I thought they just disagreed on who was the chosen son of Abram. Yes it's in Genesis, but that's after the god created everything. Yeah, the god does some different things, but originally–same one––and then Jesus comes along.

No the god of Islam is very different in many ways that are incompatible with the Christian God.

Nothing more than a marketing ploy, Frods. There is no deity involved here. Move along.

[annatar]

No the god of Islam is very different in many ways that are incompatible with the Christian God.

Have you ever read quran? Actually it is similar than you can imagine. Islam basically accepts bible but claims that christians corrupted it. And the main different is that they are against god-jesus and your trinity thing. but apart from these (and of course muhammed's own selfish desires) bible and quran so similar since both use same source which is Old testament...

[fr0d0]

I stand by the point annatar. Allah is very different from God and isn't regarded as such by mainstream Christians.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htm

[Minimalist]

Allah is very different from God and isn't regarded as such by mainstream Christians.

They are identical in one major respect.

Both are fictional.

[Godscreated]

@godschild

You have no true understanding of the scriptures so how is it you think you have the authority to define them.
Yes I did you need to read and then understand that because I see things differently doesn't mean I did not answer your question.

I freely admit I don't understand scripture, much like you have no understanding of evolution. The main difference being evolution is true and useful. I would also venture that nobody understands the scriptures because they contradict our hard earned knowledge and are internally inconsistent. Do you claim you do know?

And no you have not answered my challenge at all. You claim god gave us free will and wants us yo use it to come to fellowship with him. I have pointed out texts that state god is trying to compel us. You can't dance around on this. The words are very clear and speak for themselves. If you claim those versus mean something else you have a huge task to invalidate the interpretations of millions of others and demonstrate, why yours is right and why god needs to be so cryptic.

This may suprise you but I do understand the theory behind evolution I just do not accept it. There are way to many gaps and holes in this theory for me to consider it as a possibility. There is not one shred of proof that life could have come about without help. Now on the other hand I have no way to prove creation either it is what I choose (freewill) to believe because it makes more sense to me.

Compel and force are very far apart, yes God compels us to come to Him thats one reason He sent Christ. A loving God would not create humans and then set them on a course to try and find there way to Him. God seeks us out and compels us to come to Him but it is our choice as to what we want to do He never forces us to choose Him. God wants us to have a genuine love for Him and that can not be forced.

Answer to the above underlined I know what God reveals to me, I ask Him for the truth in and about His word.