Theist ➤ Why ☠ Atheism is Evil Compared to ✠ Christianity

[brewer]

Joker:

Jim Jones, the leader of the "Peoples Temple of the Disciples of Christ" was a christian. Sorry, you have to own that one. One possible end product of christian faith. 

Napoleon was started out christian also. 

See what that can do to people? It's certainly made you delusional.

[Edwardo Piet]

@ the OP

I disagree that without God morals have to be subjective.

Objective morals can simply be that there are objective answers in principle to moral questions once we define what moral questions are about. Just like with health. Once it is defined what health is, there are objective answers to what is healthy and unhealthy and there would be in principle even if we were not able to discover those answers in practice.

Epistemically objective morals =/= ontologically objective morals. Moral ontology is nonsense anyway. A science of well being can be objective in principle the same way that science of health can. Why call that morality? Well, there's value in valuing well being when it comes to answers to moral questions. Anyway who says "But why should we even care about well being or morality?" can be laughed at the same way anyone who asks why we should even care about health or the truth can be laughed at.

Morality is about what we ought to do and immorality is about what we ought not to do. When someone asks "Who says we ought to value well-being?" the answer is that we already do value well-being and it makes no sense to ask why we ought to value something we already value. And in fact well-being is the only thing we can value, because anything else we value is in relation to it and we're deluding ourselves if we think otherwise. That's the point.

[The Joker]

Joker:

Jim Jones, the leader of the "Peoples Temple of the Disciples of Christ" was a christian. Sorry, you have to own that one. One possible end product of christian faith. 

Napoleon was started out christian also. 

See what that can do to people? It's certainly made you delusional.

Jim Jones, the leader of the "Peoples Temple of the Disciples of Christ",  said that he “took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism”. 

Started Christian ended up Atheist.

---

@ the OP

I disagree that without God morals have to be subjective.

Objective morals can simply be that there are objective answers in principle to moral questions once we define what moral questions are about. Just like with health. Once it is defined what health is, there are objective answers to what is healthy and unhealthy and there would be in principle even if we were not able to discover those answers in practice.

Epistemically objective morals =/= ontologically objective morals. Moral ontology is nonsense anyway. A science of well being can be objective in principle the same way that science of health can. Why call that morality? Well, there's value in valuing well being when it comes to answers to moral questions. Anyway who says "But why should we even care about well being or morality?" can be laughed at the same way anyone who asks why we should even care about health or the truth can be laughed at.

Morality is about what we ought to do and immorality is about what we ought not to do. When someone asks "Who says we ought to value well-being?" the answer is that we already do value well-being and it makes no sense to ask why we ought to value something we already value. And in fact well-being is the only thing we can value, because anything else we value is in relation to it and we're deluding ourselves if we think otherwise. That's the point.

Ok. Should Jeffrey Dahmer be sent to prison? Should? or Should not?

If you say yes, should then that's just your opinion of what's Wrong-Morality is subjective in atheism

If you say no, Shouldn't then that's just your opinion on what's Right-Morality is subjective in atheism

But we know he should go to prison because of what he did, WE KNOW, the fact that we know what he did is wrong proves Objective Morality.

Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from?

Answer: Objective Morality needs a moral giver, the moral giver is God.

[Chad32]

---

I think Atheist forum should be place where everyone can get right deep into atheist thinking and examine them for study. To be honest I Just don’t think Atheism is better than the Christian standard, now before you go on about how I am an idiot and calling me names, consider the following:
Christianit,y on Morality: Morality is objective(Objective morals are those that are based outside of yourself). Morality is absolute and unchanging and comes from God, all Men and Women know right from wrong because they are created in Gods image.
Atheism on Morality: Morality is subjective( Subjective moraals are those that depend on you, your situation, culture, and your preferences. Subjective morals change, can become contradictory, and might differ from person to person.) So if the public agreed that killing children from families that have more than one child is okay, then it is actually okay. Jeffrey Dahmer an atheist who was sentenced to prison for 900yrs, He brutally killed seventeen men and boys, dismembering them, storing their parts, and indulging in cannibalism and necrophilia. He said “if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within a acceptable ranges?”.  If you, as an atheist, say that what is morally good is that which reduces over-all harm, then on what basis do you validate that assertion as being a proper moral standard?
Greatest Role model’s for Christianity: Jesus, Mary and the apostles, the martyrs of faith and saints.
Greatest Role model’s for Atheism: Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Napoleon and Jim Jones.
True Christian Family: Family hierarchy the husband the head, children properly disciplined and brought up in the Christian order, Children obey parents and daily worship and pray and visits to church. Peace at home. No divorce rates in a true Christian family.  
The Atheistic Family: No family hierarchy but democracy where everyone rules, husband not the head, no family order, no family discipline children rebelling against parents, husbands and wives quarrelling often, wife not obeying & husband not listening. Divorce rates extremely high, moral standards very low-morality is subjective. No peace in the family. Envies against one another.
The Atheist agenda:  Self-Righteous, Very high egoticism, Pride is essentially self-worship. Anything we accomplish in this world would not have been possible were it not for God enabling and sustaining us. (Admitting sin and acknowledging that in our own strength we can do nothing to inherit eternal life is a constant stumbling block for prideful people.)
Christianity: To Accomplish God’s will daily, always ready to repent when sinned, striving for humility and meekness. To the carry the cross.
Why Atheists have still not found God: They aren’t looking and second they want to avoid him. Just assuming the God of the Bible is evil without reading within context or based on what other people think.
Main fundamental doctrine of Atheism: The denial of God through lack of belief, Core foundation is self will and trusting in the theory of evolution.
True Christian Thoughts: God created everything, no evolution,  myths can’t be accepted as facts.
What atheism has done for humanity: Godless homes, The blurring away of sexual morality now LGBT in society and Genocide: Pol Pot (Cambodia): 1,700,000 people killed, Atheistic Hitler Killed (Germany): 12,000,000,  Atheistic Stalin Killed (Russia): 35,000,000 killed, Mao Zedong (China): 100,000,000+ killed
What Christianity has done for humanity: Laws that required justice among all people. (Before this, power and oppression ruled.) Laws that required providing for the feeding of the poor by leaving grains and produce for the poor in the fields.(Law of Moses) Dietary laws instituted hygeine at a time when few practiced it. Christianity is the force behind fairness for the poor, orphans, widows, and the disenfranchised of every age. Christianity is the basis of our jurisprudence, economics, and owning property. Christian first ever Hospitals, which essentially began during the Middle Ages. Universities, which also began during the Middle Ages. In addition, most of the world’s greatest universities were started for Christian purposes. The abolition of slavery, both in antiquity and in more modern times, Equal in dignity for Men and Women as they are both in God’s Images however different roles and etc.
Evidence for God: The Kalam Cosmological Argument, The Ontological Argument, The Moral Argument, Fulfilled prophecies in the Bible,  Biblical Manuscripts, the historical accuracy of the Bible and archaeology and The existence of occult supernatural magic e.g Ouija Boards, Horscopes and demon magician etc and Christian miracles and life changing power.
Christianity based on: Faith and Reason
Atheism based on: Feelings, self will for example why won’t God do it my way and Ignorance of reason, trusting in pseudo science like Biological evolution.
The easiest and simplest way to prove God's existence is to provide evidence of its existence. But there is lot lot easier way to do it. Disapprove the theory of Naturalistic Evolution and this automatically Proves God's existence or Prove Evolution and you automatically disapprove God's existence.
I'd say Theistic Evolution is only a recent idea, theistic evolution was an attempt to make the Bible fit with evolution and it wasn't as if we got evolution from the Bible because the normal  traditional  reading of Genesis for 2000 years was a literal 6 day creation. Genesis does not talk about the Big bang or apes evolving. The problem is this is not how to interpret the Bible in the right way, the thing is you don't use an idea to fit in with the Bible but we see if the idea fits in with the Bible. Theistic evolution is not in harmony with the Bible, but it is in total conflict with it. Misrepresents the nature of the Christian God, allows millions of years of death and horror before sin. It makes the Christian God look weak and lacking power because God had to Lie in Genesis that he created the world in 6 days and wait millions of years of death and evolution until Adam and Eve came on the scene even though Genesis(Bible) says there was no death in the creation week.

The two options.

A)Prove Naturalistic Evolution to be true and you take out God's existence because this shows a natural explanation of how everything came into existence without the assistance of the supernatural.
B)Take out Naturalistic Evolution and the existence of God is automatically Proven.

Because it's one or the other,

A):We came here by an accident without true meaning or purpose, but we are just some random living organism in space, Or
B):God created us with a meaning and purpose to life, not including our private wants.

But it also depends on ones honesty as well, not just the evidence, no amount of evidence is going to convince someone who is unwilling to accept it. So we must look at ii, in both ways.

A) Is there convincing evidence for Naturalistic Evolution?
or
B) Is there convincing evidence against Naturalistic Evolution?

When atheists say, the burden of Proof is on the theist to provide the evidence for Gods existence. There is a twist to the game you see, a theist may say the burden of Proof is on the atheist to provide proof of Naturalistic Evolution that we came into existence by an accident, see the problem? So, we must check both sides.
Again, I appreciate your point, but I am having trouble accepting that common argument from atheists, when getting deep into the cosmological argument "It doesn't mean God did it, so I lack belief in God".

The problem I see.

If it can be proven that we didn't come here by an accident of mindless dumb evolution without meaning or purpose, then we obviously know God did it, But the atheist may say "BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN GOD DID IT Just because we didn't come here by an accident through chance of evolution!" Well in that case if you prefer not to use the term "God," you may simply call him/it: "The Extremely Powerful, Uncaused, Necessarily Existing, Non-Contingent, Non-Physical, Immaterial, Eternal Being Who Created the Entire Universe...And Everything In It." With a meaning and a purpose to life.

---

There is so much wrong, right from the start, that I'm not sure it's worth it to go over everything. I guess I'll start with just the top. You got the word objective right, but you assume that morality can still be objective if it comes from god. God is an individual. His word is his opinion, as much as anyone's. If morality is objective, it's separate from him too. Objective means it comes from outside yourself, where yourself in this context means all individuals. Including gods.

We can argue this point, and get it out of the way, before we get to the rest.

[PETE_ROSE]

I'm actually surprised no one called you a racist pastoral lampoon.


Yet! The day is still young.

[PETE_ROSE]

Need to step up your game forum. Although it is Sunday, maybe everyone's at church.

[vorlon13]

Opened OP

Read the words "cannibalism and necrophilia" in an argument against atheism.

Closed OP

we all know  the cannibalism is entirely confined to Christian infants and I think he meant to say coprophagia instead of necrophilia

although I suppose if someone committed coprophagia involving someone who had recently eaten a baby, technically . . . .

[Whateverist]

As I scanned through the usual self congratulatory drivel about morality I figured pretty much standard naive xtian koolade drinker. But I stopped reading when I got to:

Greatest Role model’s for Christianity: Jesus, Mary and the apostles, the martyrs of faith and saints.
Greatest Role model’s for Atheism: Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Napoleon and Jim Jones.

The writing was on the wall. This is not just some home schooled, backward but well meaning christard; this asshole is a troll pure and simple. Not feeding this troll any more. Engaging ignore function.

[The Joker]

---

I think Atheist forum should be place where everyone can get right deep into atheist thinking and examine them for study. To be honest I Just don’t think Atheism is better than the Christian standard, now before you go on about how I am an idiot and calling me names, consider the following:
Christianit,y on Morality: Morality is objective(Objective morals are those that are based outside of yourself). Morality is absolute and unchanging and comes from God, all Men and Women know right from wrong because they are created in Gods image.
Atheism on Morality: Morality is subjective( Subjective moraals are those that depend on you, your situation, culture, and your preferences. Subjective morals change, can become contradictory, and might differ from person to person.) So if the public agreed that killing children from families that have more than one child is okay, then it is actually okay. Jeffrey Dahmer an atheist who was sentenced to prison for 900yrs, He brutally killed seventeen men and boys, dismembering them, storing their parts, and indulging in cannibalism and necrophilia. He said “if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within a acceptable ranges?”.  If you, as an atheist, say that what is morally good is that which reduces over-all harm, then on what basis do you validate that assertion as being a proper moral standard?
Greatest Role model’s for Christianity: Jesus, Mary and the apostles, the martyrs of faith and saints.
Greatest Role model’s for Atheism: Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Napoleon and Jim Jones.
True Christian Family: Family hierarchy the husband the head, children properly disciplined and brought up in the Christian order, Children obey parents and daily worship and pray and visits to church. Peace at home. No divorce rates in a true Christian family.  
The Atheistic Family: No family hierarchy but democracy where everyone rules, husband not the head, no family order, no family discipline children rebelling against parents, husbands and wives quarrelling often, wife not obeying & husband not listening. Divorce rates extremely high, moral standards very low-morality is subjective. No peace in the family. Envies against one another.
The Atheist agenda:  Self-Righteous, Very high egoticism, Pride is essentially self-worship. Anything we accomplish in this world would not have been possible were it not for God enabling and sustaining us. (Admitting sin and acknowledging that in our own strength we can do nothing to inherit eternal life is a constant stumbling block for prideful people.)
Christianity: To Accomplish God’s will daily, always ready to repent when sinned, striving for humility and meekness. To the carry the cross.
Why Atheists have still not found God: They aren’t looking and second they want to avoid him. Just assuming the God of the Bible is evil without reading within context or based on what other people think.
Main fundamental doctrine of Atheism: The denial of God through lack of belief, Core foundation is self will and trusting in the theory of evolution.
True Christian Thoughts: God created everything, no evolution,  myths can’t be accepted as facts.
What atheism has done for humanity: Godless homes, The blurring away of sexual morality now LGBT in society and Genocide: Pol Pot (Cambodia): 1,700,000 people killed, Atheistic Hitler Killed (Germany): 12,000,000,  Atheistic Stalin Killed (Russia): 35,000,000 killed, Mao Zedong (China): 100,000,000+ killed
What Christianity has done for humanity: Laws that required justice among all people. (Before this, power and oppression ruled.) Laws that required providing for the feeding of the poor by leaving grains and produce for the poor in the fields.(Law of Moses) Dietary laws instituted hygeine at a time when few practiced it. Christianity is the force behind fairness for the poor, orphans, widows, and the disenfranchised of every age. Christianity is the basis of our jurisprudence, economics, and owning property. Christian first ever Hospitals, which essentially began during the Middle Ages. Universities, which also began during the Middle Ages. In addition, most of the world’s greatest universities were started for Christian purposes. The abolition of slavery, both in antiquity and in more modern times, Equal in dignity for Men and Women as they are both in God’s Images however different roles and etc.
Evidence for God: The Kalam Cosmological Argument, The Ontological Argument, The Moral Argument, Fulfilled prophecies in the Bible,  Biblical Manuscripts, the historical accuracy of the Bible and archaeology and The existence of occult supernatural magic e.g Ouija Boards, Horscopes and demon magician etc and Christian miracles and life changing power.
Christianity based on: Faith and Reason
Atheism based on: Feelings, self will for example why won’t God do it my way and Ignorance of reason, trusting in pseudo science like Biological evolution.
The easiest and simplest way to prove God's existence is to provide evidence of its existence. But there is lot lot easier way to do it. Disapprove the theory of Naturalistic Evolution and this automatically Proves God's existence or Prove Evolution and you automatically disapprove God's existence.
I'd say Theistic Evolution is only a recent idea, theistic evolution was an attempt to make the Bible fit with evolution and it wasn't as if we got evolution from the Bible because the normal  traditional  reading of Genesis for 2000 years was a literal 6 day creation. Genesis does not talk about the Big bang or apes evolving. The problem is this is not how to interpret the Bible in the right way, the thing is you don't use an idea to fit in with the Bible but we see if the idea fits in with the Bible. Theistic evolution is not in harmony with the Bible, but it is in total conflict with it. Misrepresents the nature of the Christian God, allows millions of years of death and horror before sin. It makes the Christian God look weak and lacking power because God had to Lie in Genesis that he created the world in 6 days and wait millions of years of death and evolution until Adam and Eve came on the scene even though Genesis(Bible) says there was no death in the creation week.

The two options.

A)Prove Naturalistic Evolution to be true and you take out God's existence because this shows a natural explanation of how everything came into existence without the assistance of the supernatural.
B)Take out Naturalistic Evolution and the existence of God is automatically Proven.

Because it's one or the other,

A):We came here by an accident without true meaning or purpose, but we are just some random living organism in space, Or
B):God created us with a meaning and purpose to life, not including our private wants.

But it also depends on ones honesty as well, not just the evidence, no amount of evidence is going to convince someone who is unwilling to accept it. So we must look at ii, in both ways.

A) Is there convincing evidence for Naturalistic Evolution?
or
B) Is there convincing evidence against Naturalistic Evolution?

When atheists say, the burden of Proof is on the theist to provide the evidence for Gods existence. There is a twist to the game you see, a theist may say the burden of Proof is on the atheist to provide proof of Naturalistic Evolution that we came into existence by an accident, see the problem? So, we must check both sides.
Again, I appreciate your point, but I am having trouble accepting that common argument from atheists, when getting deep into the cosmological argument "It doesn't mean God did it, so I lack belief in God".

The problem I see.

If it can be proven that we didn't come here by an accident of mindless dumb evolution without meaning or purpose, then we obviously know God did it, But the atheist may say "BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN GOD DID IT Just because we didn't come here by an accident through chance of evolution!" Well in that case if you prefer not to use the term "God," you may simply call him/it: "The Extremely Powerful, Uncaused, Necessarily Existing, Non-Contingent, Non-Physical, Immaterial, Eternal Being Who Created the Entire Universe...And Everything In It." With a meaning and a purpose to life.

---

There is so much wrong, right from the start, that I'm not sure it's worth it to go over everything. I guess I'll start with just the top. You got the word objective right, but you assume that morality can still be objective if it comes from god. God is an individual. His word is his opinion, as much as anyone's. If morality is objective, it's separate from him too. Objective means it comes from outside yourself, where yourself in this context means all individuals. Including gods.

We can argue this point, and get it out of the way, before we get to the rest.

This raises a problem: is something good just because God wills it, or does God will something because it is good? The answer is: neither one! Rather, God wills something because He is good.

God is the standard of moral values just as a live musical performance is the standard for a high-fidelity recording. The more a recording sounds like the original, the better it is. Likewise, the more closely a moral action conforms to God’s nature, the better it is.

But if atheism is true, there is no ultimate standard so there can be no moral obligations or duties. Who or what lays such duties upon us? No one.

But this isn't the case, Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from?

Answer: Objective Morality needs a moral giver, the moral giver is God.

[brewer]

Joker:

Jim Jones, the leader of the "Peoples Temple of the Disciples of Christ" was a christian. Sorry, you have to own that one. One possible end product of christian faith. 

Napoleon was started out christian also. 

See what that can do to people? It's certainly made you delusional.

Jim Jones, the leader of the "Peoples Temple of the Disciples of Christ",  said that he “took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism”. 

Started Christian ended up Atheist.

Then your god must not be much of a god to let this atrocity happen in his name.