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Christmas Traditions and Biblical Contradictions with Reality
#11
RE: Christmas Traditions and Biblical Contradictions with Reality
BTW, more proof the current era christers aren't doing it right:

From Genesis:

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
(emphasis mine)

Note it does NOT say there was morning and there was evening, --the first day.  God has ordained how they are to measure the days of their lives, particularly galling, ain't it then in their pegging Sabbaths and religious holidays to the clock incorrectly, and I'm not seeing much religious froth, fervor or lather to straighten things out.
 The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it. 




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#12
RE: Christmas Traditions and Biblical Contradictions with Reality
(November 26, 2016 at 10:57 pm)Luckie Wrote: [Image: 1%2B-%2Bwise-men.jpg]

So, it's Christmas. Yay! It's always been my favorite holiday since I was little, there's just something about the beauty of a Christmas tree lit up that I adore! I love how the darkness is lit all throughout my home state of Colorado. Coloradans know how to do Christmas! So, today I started up my holiday cheer with some Trans Siberia Orchestra, Carol of the Bells! I loved that movie Home Alone, and that orchestra and that movie come hand in hand with several other Christmas time references that just make this time of year special for me.

But my mom just popped off randomly, "Can you just.. turn that off?" I asked why. She said, "You're just blowing my mind right now, it's too much."

Curious, I asked her why I was blowing her mind and she said, "Because that's a song about Christ and you're an atheist!"

I.. didn't even know what to say. After a bit, I pulled my jaw back up and said, "So what?"

We went through this whole thing of how she's been wondering what songs she could play around me and whatnot now that I'm an atheist (I was raised, a Christian from birth). I simply replied, "Whatever makes you happy".

So I turned back on the feed and kept listening to Christmas music! Annnndddd she popped off again during one of my personal favorites, "Little Drummer Boy" by saying, "You know that's about three wise men who traveled for years to find Jesus right?" And I was like, uh, why are we talking about this right now??? It's not like I haven't been told that by you since birth!

Well, anyways she kinda ruined my holiday cheer.

So I thought I'd take a look into these "three wise men". And it turns out, it doesn't say that at all? It calls whomever came, "Magi" which were well known to be astrologer/astromers (which was considered a science at the time), and rather than Kings themselves, they served Kings. The original wording in the bible states that they found Mary with the child not necessarily in a barn but rather the same word used for a house, and it may not have even been at the time of his birth! Most likely they were in the back room that families had where they kept their prized animals--which are also used as makeshift guest rooms. Apparently, Josephs family might not have been too keen on Mary's infidelity and made them sleep in the Donkey Suite. xD Oh, if you're wondering when the Magi found Jesus, according to the bible it's far later than his birth. So the birth of Jesus tale is just that.. a Tale.

Sorry your mom pooped on Christmas for you. I'm the one that usually does that. At a glance some of the stuff you posted is accurate while other bits.. not so much. Or rather the narritive is a little near sighted. Meaning it speaks to perception of the events rather than what is recorded.

Christians if you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe your own Christian historians?


http://www.bible.ca/D-Xmas-story.htm
[hide]MYTH #5: They spent the night in a separate building like a barn where the animals were kept.

The bible only points out Jesus was born in a manger not that he spent his whole life there. Remember Joseph had to go back to his home town (Bethlehem) for a census, which could have taken days, weeks, months. To establish who he was and to be counted by a government official. Not to mention he now had a new born to support and a long road trip/on foot would be idea, so he probably settled down there for a while.
This is kinda underscored by the fact that after Herod was told by these wise men that the king of the Jews was born and they were looking for Him. To which Herod demanded that they come back and tell him so he "could also worship Jesus." when he found out that he had been deceived by the wisemen he order the death of all males under the age of 2. As that is how long the star shown over Bethlehem, and subsequently how old Christ was. So more than likly Jesus was 2 or so when the wise men came.


Quote:TRUTH: There was no room on the upper floor of the house so they spent the night on the main floor of the house where the animals were kept inside the house. Most ancient Jewish houses had a common area on the main floor, including a manger where animals ate and slept at night, and an upper room where everyone slept. It is possible that there was a separate barn, but this would often be attached to the house directly.
this reads correctly. But again is just a note in history as Joseph would not have been renting/sleeping with goats a room for that long.

Quote:MYTH #6: There were three wise men.
TRUTH: There were three gifts, gold frankincense and myrrh. There may have been 10 wise men, we don’t know, but each of them likely brought some gold frankincense and myrrh. Since these were common currency items of value, each wise man, regardless of the actual number, brought a little of all three.
true No idea how many wise men there were.


Quote:MYTH #7: The star of Bethlehem shone over the manger the night Jesus was born.
Actually true. Mat 2:2 says the star was the indicator that Jesus was born. However 2:1 say the wise men did not show up till sometime after his birth.
Quote:TRUTH: The wise men did not come to Jerusalem until after Mary had purified on day 33 after the birth of Jesus.
true.. like 2 years after.
Quote: It was at that point the star began to move slowly ahead of the wise men till it hovered over the place Jesus was located.
This happened after they saw/had a meeting with herod.

Quote: This means that the star was not hovering over Jesus the night he was born.
Again 2:2 of Mat say otherwise.

Quote: The star shone over a house, not a barn or an inn. "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother" (Matthew 2:11). It is never called "the star of Bethlehem", simply, "His star".
true.

Quote:The shepherds were directed by an angel (not a star) to the manger of Jesus the night he was born.
True, they were led first by angels as they would have no clue what to look for in the way of celestial signs.
Quote:The star led the "wise men from the east", who traveled at least 700 km from the Persian or Babylonian area, to the house of Joseph and Mary. This trip would take at least 30 days after the birth of Jesus when you average 25 km per day travel time.
Or perhaps even further east. We do not know who they were specifically.
Quote:After Jesus had been circumcised on the 8th day in the temple, and Mary performed her purification on the 33rd day, Jesus may have been taken to Joseph's home in Nazareth and this is where the star led the wise men: “When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.” (Luke 2:39).
You can't just read this and ignore what the rest of mat 2 says. (about an angel telling Joseph to goto Egypt)
So somewhere between verse 38 and 39 of luke, Joseph's family flees to egypt and herod the great dies. as per Mt2

Quote:The star, therefore, might have shone over Nazareth, not Bethlehem.
Not likly as the 3 wise men came before they fled to egypt.
Quote:The flight to Egypt did not happen until after Mary's purification on the 33rd day. Only after this did the Magi arrive in Jerusalem.
true.
Quote:They were directed to Bethlehem, not by the star, but because Jewish authorities quoted Micah 5:2.

Per Mat2 The star simply indicated the birth of Christ. They went to Bethlehem because of what they knew of scripture. The met with Herod, after the meeting the star reappeared.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV
Quote:However, the redirection of the Magi to an alternate return route coupled with the same hour of the night urgent departure, both lend weight to the star leading the Magi to the same house Jesus was born.
an angel told them to go a different way home again found in mt 2


Quote:MYTH #8: The wise men arrived the night Jesus was born in a manger.
Not likly. Wise men were up to 2 years late.

Quote:TRUTH: The shepherds came to the manger (Luke 2:8-10), but not the wise men came to Joseph's house. In fact, Herod orders the slaughter of the babies two years of age and younger. This means that the child would be well under two years old, in order that no error could be made in killing Jesus, but it also indicates that Jesus was older than a newborn.
Yes! Shepards were there that night and Jesus was not a new born when the wise men came.

Quote:Look up what I'm saying if you want, I don't mind a good critique!  I like to both learn and share knowledge.

Here's something interesting in the headlines.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20...131518.htm
Big Grin
Quote:Camels are mentioned as pack animals in the biblical stories of Abraham, Joseph, and Jacob. But archaeologists have shown that camels were not domesticated in the Land of Israel until centuries after the Age of the Patriarchs (2000-1500 BCE). In addition to challenging the Bible's historicity, this anachronism is direct proof that the text was compiled well after the events it describes.

Now Dr. Erez Ben-Yosef and Dr. Lidar Sapir-Hen of Tel Aviv University's Department of Archaeology and Near Eastern Cultures have used radiocarbon dating to pinpoint the moment when domesticated camels arrived in the southern Levant, pushing the estimate from the 12th to the 9th century BCE. The findings, published recently in the journal Tel Aviv, further emphasize the disagreements between Biblical texts and verifiable history, and define a turning point in Israel's engagement with the rest of the world.

"The introduction of the camel to our region was a very important economic and social development," said Dr. Ben-Yosef. "By analyzing archaeological evidence from the copper production sites of the Aravah Valley, we were able to estimate the date of this event in terms of decades rather than centuries."
Poor Poor Near sighted scientists... All of this would be great for dispelling the wise men if 1) the bible even mentioned the wise men using camels, and or two they (meaning the wise men) were from the area from which this study is referring.


Quote:Speaking of Camels, take a look at this find!

Giant Camel Fossil Found in Canadian Arctic


Over the course of three expeditions, which began in 2006, researchers from the Canadian Museum of Nature collected 30 fragments of fossilised leg bone from Ellesmere Island in Canada.

Their size suggested that the animal was about 30% larger that today's camels, measuring about 2.7m from foot to shoulder.


[Image: _42178865_camel_ap416.jpg]

Quote:Dr Buckley said: "These biomolecules tell us that it is a direct ancestor of modern camels."
He said the findings provided a new insight into the evolution of this animal.
"It suggests that many of the adaptations that we currently think of, in terms of camels being adapted to warm desert-like environments, could have actually originated through adaptation to quite the opposite extreme... cold, harsh environments," he explained.
The scientists believe that the camel's hump (which stores fat, not water as is sometimes thought) could provide the reserves needed for an Arctic six-month winter.
Their large eyes would have helped them to see in the low light, and their flat feet would have been just as useful for walking on snow as they are on sand. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-21673940


Rather funny how my whole day's worth of Christmas journey ended with camels, but hey. I know I've heard other Biblical tale inaccuracies surrounding the birth of Jesus Christ mentioned on this forum, so, let's point them out!
As you pointed out, camels originated from North America and migrated across the North american/Asian land bridge to Asia... Which is EAST of Bethlehem.

So where did the wise men come from again??? Oh, that's right the EAST!!!

Quote:Oh here's another one!

Nazareth, The City That Never Was

The evidence for a 1st century town of Nazareth does not exist – not literary, not archaeologically, and not historically.
http://www.thenazareneway.com/nazarene_or_nazareth.htm
Then someone better let these people know, because they are claiming to be excavating homes from first century Nazerath and carbon dating them from that time frame:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/2...reth.home/
http://www.livescience.com/49997-jesus-h...areth.html
Here is a second house in nazerath and a whole buch of other archeological evidence.
http://www.is-there-a-god.info/blog/beli...jesus-day/

Quote:[hide]
Nazarene or Nazareth?
A People Erased from Existence and The City That Never Was
The Disassociation of Jesus from the Holiest of Peoples

[quote]
For 20 centuries, most of the life of Jesus has been hidden or suppressed, but modern archeological discoveries have now shed new light on his enigmatic life. Archeologists have now proven that the city of Nazareth did not exist until three centuries after his death, and questions long debated in scholarly circles are now coming to the forefront. Armed with ancient sources like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the papyrus books of Nag Hammadi, and the long overlooked writings from the early church, modern scholars and theologians are reconstructing the life and times of Jesus, and what they are finding is very different from the life and teachings we have been "led to believe."
No wonder you wanted to 'hide' all of this... Because it and 5 bucks will get you a Venti Carmel maciado

Quote:
The Essenes, The Nazarenes
At the time of Jesus, there were three major Jewish Sects. The Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Essenes. The Pharisees and the Sadducees were relatively similar in their beliefs and traditions, but the Essenes were radically different and openly opposed the theology, doctrines, and the spiritual integrity of both the Pharisees and the Sadducees.
There are numerous historical, literary and archaeological accounts of the existence of the Essenes, yet the bible is strangely silent about them. We know of their specific geographic locations throughout Egypt and ancient Palestine, we know of their customs and traditions, and we know the details of their deeply rooted spiritual convictions and of their esoteric religious beliefs.
The word Essene is a collective term and is not necessarily a distinctive designation, just as the word Christian encompasses a wide base of institutionalized systems of religious beliefs, attitudes and practices. There are currently over 34,000 separate Christian groups that have been identified throughout the world. Most are independent churches.
At the time of Jesus, there were three distinct Essenian groups that played important roles in his life, and their religious practices and spiritual theology mirror in his teachings. They were:
  • The Theraputae of Egypt; where the infant Christ and his family fled during Herods rein. The Essenes of Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls), the strict, celibate monastery of which John the Baptist was a part.The Nazarenes of Mount Carmel, the cooperative family village where Jesus lived and studied.
Josephus and other classic writers tell us of the Essenes and their intense appreciation for the inspired Law of God and that they "strove to be like the angels of heaven." They also opposed slavery, the sacrificing of animals and the eating of flesh. Their highest aim was to become fit temples of the Holy Ghost (1 Cor 6:19), to be healers and perform cures, especially spiritual cures, and to be spiritually qualified as forerunners of the Messiah, the latter being the primary spiritual focus of the Nazarenes of Mount Carmel.

very nice...
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#13
RE: Christmas Traditions and Biblical Contradictions with Reality
Quote:Christians if you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe your own Christian historians?

Why?  They are as big a bunch of fucking liars as you are.  At least they get paid for it.
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#14
RE: Christmas Traditions and Biblical Contradictions with Reality
Omg it's the Drichman! Hai! Thanks for dawning my little thread here, it's nice to see ya!
I'll take a looksie at what you replied to, right now I'm just excited you're here!
How's life? Ramped up for a Merry Christmas? Me too. Here's a well-meaning make you laugh
meme from my favorite holiday movie, to start the season out right! Just for you Heart 

[Image: christmas+vacation.jpg]
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!

Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.

Dead wrong.  The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.

Quote:Some people deserve hell.

I say again:  No exceptions.  Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it.  As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.

[Image: tumblr_n1j4lmACk61qchtw3o1_500.gif]
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#15
RE: Christmas Traditions and Biblical Contradictions with Reality
Can someone please tell me why I should give a rat's char-broiled bum about any of this? How does Christmas traditions not having Biblical authority matter even a little bit?

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#16
RE: Christmas Traditions and Biblical Contradictions with Reality
christers busy 1) defending extra-dogmatical concerns 2) reflecting on yet another doctrinal cockup count towards their service merit awards supporting atheism
 The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it. 




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#17
RE: Christmas Traditions and Biblical Contradictions with Reality
(November 28, 2016 at 12:06 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Can someone please tell me why I should give a rat's char-broiled bum about any of this?  How does Christmas traditions not having Biblical authority matter even a little bit?

Boru

Because nothing is more fun that to point out to a bunch of pious Christians that they're acting like pagans and watch their eyes go red.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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#18
RE: Christmas Traditions and Biblical Contradictions with Reality
paganism !

OMFG !!

That's having another God before the right God !!!
 The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it. 




Reply
#19
RE: Christmas Traditions and Biblical Contradictions with Reality
I wish there was a way that the CBOT could be dealing in damnation futures. Shit, I could be making some fucking money on that.
 The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it. 




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#20
RE: Christmas Traditions and Biblical Contradictions with Reality
(November 28, 2016 at 11:56 am)Luckie Wrote: Omg it's the Drichman! Hai! Thanks for dawning my little thread here, it's nice to see ya!
I'll take a looksie at what you replied to, right now I'm just excited you're here!
How's life? Ramped up for a Merry Christmas? Me too. Here's a well-meaning make you laugh
meme from my favorite holiday movie, to start the season out right! Just for you Heart 

[Image: christmas+vacation.jpg]

To be honest Christmas Vaca is my fav too. Love the sled scene and the road rage bit with the semi truck..

In short I agree there was no wise men at the birth of Christ, I just get there a little more directly than your historians do.
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