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God does not determine right and wrong
January 26, 2018 at 11:25 pm
I found this in A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.
To religious people: If god declared that rape and murder were morally acceptable, would that make them so?
Most of you would probably say that god would not say such a thing. But why not? Presumably because god would have some reason for not making such a declaration. But this means that there is some reason for finding rape and murder to be morally wrong. In which case, why can't we appeal to reason directly and remove god from the discussion?
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
January 26, 2018 at 11:27 pm
(This post was last modified: January 26, 2018 at 11:29 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
I imagine a world where rape and murder were morally good would be a very very different world. Everything about human nature and how this world works points to those things being morally wrong.
Basically it makes no sense for God to declare rape/murder morally good, considering the world He has set up and the way He created us. They are contrary to natural law.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
January 27, 2018 at 1:22 am
As already said, natural law demands respect for life.
The question is really, where does life come from?
When you remove God from this equation, then of course you don't need God as the reference point for the laws of life.
People have the capacity to deny every sensibility and every reality, and be famous for it.
Imagine a society where rape and murder are considered normal?
No need to imagine - history is full of that.
And modern society is fast filling with that kind of mentality, through war games, entertainment, false religions, crime and violence in the home and neighborhood, mind destroying drinks and drugs, greed and oppression.
And the structure of society isn't free of garbage either - the education system teaches competition and ambition, job and careers channel people into ruts of a working life, governments and big business enable corruption, and suffocate freedom and prosperity.
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
January 27, 2018 at 1:52 am
Quote:Most of you would probably say that god would not say such a thing.
If you listen to these dickheads he already has.
Quote:"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)
God is something of a scumbag if you ask me.
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
January 27, 2018 at 2:02 am
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2018 at 2:04 am by GrandizerII.)
True, OP. What God says or does not say is irrelevant. This and that are wrong because <insert rational argument that does not invoke God>. Even many theists concede that if their God were to say rape or murder was morally right, they would not agree with him, lol.
And in fact, the Christian God himself was in charge of genocide various times (commanding human beings to commit them), yet no sane Christian today will agree that genocide is right.
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
January 27, 2018 at 3:34 am
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2018 at 3:34 am by Banned.)
(January 27, 2018 at 1:52 am)Minimalist Wrote: "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)
God is something of a scumbag if you ask me.
[/quote]
So an army which sneaks up behind an innocent wandering nation of vagabonds and ex slaves, to kill the elderly and vulnerable families at the rear of the procession, is nice and should be patted by God?
Woe.
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
January 27, 2018 at 6:25 am
(January 26, 2018 at 11:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I imagine a world where rape and murder were morally good would be a very very different world. Everything about human nature and how this world works points to those things being morally wrong.
Basically it makes no sense for God to declare rape/murder morally good, considering the world He has set up and the way He created us. They are contrary to natural law.
If rape and murder are 'contrary to natural law', of what use is God when it comes to determining morality? If God is the author of morality, then anything God deems to be a moral good (including rape and murder) is a moral good. There are Biblical passages in which God explicitly condones rape, murder, infanticide and genocide. Since the great majority of human beings are repulsed by such acts, it strikes me that moral behaviour exists independently of what God has to say about it.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
January 27, 2018 at 9:03 am
(January 27, 2018 at 6:25 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (January 26, 2018 at 11:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I imagine a world where rape and murder were morally good would be a very very different world. Everything about human nature and how this world works points to those things being morally wrong.
Basically it makes no sense for God to declare rape/murder morally good, considering the world He has set up and the way He created us. They are contrary to natural law.
If rape and murder are 'contrary to natural law', of what use is God when it comes to determining morality? If God is the author of morality, then anything God deems to be a moral good (including rape and murder) is a moral good. There are Biblical passages in which God explicitly condones rape, murder, infanticide and genocide. Since the great majority of human beings are repulsed by such acts, it strikes me that moral behaviour exists independently of what God has to say about it.
Boru
It's still OK for the religious folks to imbibe poison and pester cobras ain't it ?
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
January 27, 2018 at 10:28 am
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2018 at 10:29 am by polymath257.)
This is hardly new with Kraus and goes back at least to the time of Socrates Look up Eurthyphro Dilemma.
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
January 27, 2018 at 10:32 am
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2018 at 10:40 am by LadyForCamus.)
(January 26, 2018 at 11:25 pm)Alexmahone Wrote: I found this in A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.
To religious people: If god declared that rape and murder were morally acceptable, would that make them so?
Most of you would probably say that god would not say such a thing. But why not? Presumably because god would have some reason for not making such a declaration. But this means that there is some reason for finding rape and murder to be morally wrong. In which case, why can't we appeal to reason directly and remove god from the discussion?
Because that would be too fucking easy. 
(January 27, 2018 at 3:34 am)Banned Wrote: (January 27, 2018 at 1:52 am)Minimalist Wrote: "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)
God is something of a scumbag if you ask me.
Quote:So an army which sneaks up behind an innocent wandering nation of vagabonds and ex slaves, to kill the elderly and vulnerable families at the rear of the procession, is nice and should be patted by God?
Woe.
So...ordering babies murdered in retaliation is okay then? You’re right. Our depraved, barbaric society really should be turning to the Bible for moral salvation. 😏
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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