Question about death to Atheists.

[Whateverist]

Watched the first ten minutes and will watch the rest soon.  (Early morning walk with the pups is happening.)  Interesting.

For those put off by the recent spate of threads obsessed with NDE (near death experiences), end of life (EOL) experiences doesn't deal with weird beyond the grave stuff - just what lots of people experience as they near death.  Interesting.  Of course those whose world view revolves around the divine or a life after, they would tend to interpret these experiences as boding promise of a reunion with passed loved ones.  Logical, given their world view.  But I didn't listen to in that light of course and I found plenty of interest without any supernatural mumbo jumbo.

We all die, part of the deal.  We are so good at anticipating what's coming consciously that our mortality is hard to ignore.  To my mind, the dreams Mary and others describe in the video are indicative of the way the cosmos feels to the part of you which is truly timeless and perceives your impending mortality -if at all- very differently.  I'm sure that sort of dream is comforting and as our decaying brains lose power perhaps it becomes less clear which perspective is more compelling?  

But acquiescing to the inevitable is probably preferable to panic.  I don't think I'd wish to become delusional but if we cultivate the capacity to appreciate the unconscious mind on its own terms in life without becoming confused about where its perspective rules and where that of our conscious minds is more important, we can continue to enjoy the best of each on up to the end.  That would be my preference.

The problem with NDEs is that scientists have looked for such things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Parnia...E.29_study

And, they have not found anything conclusive.  When (and if) someone has a NDE and is able to verify an object's existence remotely (say, from the ceiling), then such will be proof that human consciousness survives the death of one's physical brain.

Hope you don't think what I wrote in any way validates taking NDEs (or EOLs for that matter) as evidence for an afterlife or divinity.  I can't imagine what science could possibly discover that would make me think dear dead aunt Mary is just over there following my life's story or eager to welcome me to her side.  Literally, it is bull shit.  It just dove tails nicely for those already decided upon there being a god and an afterlife in a way which precludes their looking at it objectively.

[Jehanne]

And, they have not found anything conclusive.  When (and if) someone has a NDE and is able to verify an object's existence remotely (say, from the ceiling), then such will be proof that human consciousness survives the death of one's physical brain.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...=104397005

When the operation began, the surgeons taped shut Reynolds' eyes and put molded speakers in her ears. The ear speakers, which made clicking sounds as loud as a jet plane taking off, allowed the surgeons to measure her brain stem activity and let them know when they could drain her blood.

"I was lying there on the gurney minding my own business, seriously unconscious, when I started to hear a noise," Reynolds recalls. "It was a natural D, and as the sound continued — I don't know how to explain this, other than to go ahead and say it — I popped up out the top of my head."

She says she found herself looking down at the operating table. She says she could see 20 people around the table and hear what sounded like a dentist's drill. She looked at the instrument in the surgeon's hand.

"It was an odd-looking thing," she says. "It looked like the handle on my electric toothbrush."

Reynolds observed the Midas Rex bone saw the surgeons used to cut open her head, the drill bits, and the case, which looked like the one where her father kept his socket wrenches. Then she noticed a surgeon at her left groin.

"I heard a female voice say, 'Her arteries are too small.' And Dr. Spetzler — I think it was him — said, 'Use the other side,' " Reynolds says.

Afterwards, Reynolds assumed she had been hallucinating. But a year later, she mentioned the details to her neurosurgeon. Spetzler says her account matched his memory.

"From a scientific perspective," he says, "I have absolutely no explanation about how it could have happened."

Spetzler did not check out all the details, but Michael Sabom did. Sabom is a cardiologist in Atlanta who was researching near-death experiences.

"With Pam's permission, they sent me her records from the surgery," he says. "And long story short, what she said happened to her is actually what Spetzler did with her out in Arizona."

According to the records, there were 20 doctors in the room. There was a conversation about the veins in her left leg. She was defibrillated. They were playing "Hotel California." How about that bone saw? Sabom got a photo from the manufacturer — and it does look like an electric toothbrush.

How, Sabom wonders, could she know these things?

"She could not have heard [it], because of what they did to her ears," he says. "In addition, both of her eyes were taped shut, so she couldn't open her eyes and see what was going on. So her physical sensory perception was off the table."

Pam Reynolds is one piece of anecdotal evidence that is no different than the claimed abductions by space aliens, and you should not take any of her past (she's deceased now) claims seriously.  The Catholic saint Don Bosco claimed to have had visions of hell and heaven and Saint Faustina claimed to have been in direct contact with Jesus.

Again, if there is real evidence of NDEs, what can't the phenomenon be captured under control conditions?  Answer:  because it is not there???

---

Hope you don't think what I wrote in any way validates taking NDEs (or EOLs for that matter) as evidence for an afterlife or divinity.  I can't imagine what science could possibly discover that would make me think dear dead aunt Mary is just over there following my life's story or eager to welcome me to her side.  Literally, it is bull shit.  It just dove tails nicely for those already decided upon there being a god and an afterlife in a way which precludes their looking at it objectively.

If the phenomenon truly existed, then there should be evidence for it.

[Huggy Bear]

Pam Reynolds is one piece of anecdotal evidence that is no different than the claimed abductions by space aliens, and you should not take any of her past (she's deceased now) claims seriously.  The Catholic saint Don Bosco claimed to have had visions of hell and heaven and Saint Faustina claimed to have been in direct contact with Jesus.

Not the same thing, her testimony was corroborated witnesses and by medical records. Oddly enough, you weren't there but you seem to know the circumstances better than the professionals.

Again, if there is real evidence of NDEs, what can't the phenomenon be captured under control conditions?  Answer:  because it is not there???

Please explain your method for achieving this?

[chimp3]

Religion : People say outrageous things. Some people believe them. Some do not.

[bennyboy]

Therefore for the believer there is no death because he is not separated for God, it's just simply transitioning from one place to another.

Now if you want to define death in the more traditional sense, fair enough, but that has nothing to do with what happens to consciousness afterward.

Unless you are claiming that belief creates reality, then your belief is irrelevant to whether there is or isn't death for you. More correct: "For the believer, there is the belief that he will transition from one place to another."

The question is whether that belief is correct, and there are very good reasons to believe it not to be.

---

That I believe in things which seem to represent reality, and do not reserve the term for fairy tales?

http://faculty.valenciacollege.edu/droge...fact3.html

Belief vs. Fact

Often, people confuse belief with fact. Both involve some concept of the Truth, but belief does not really hint at whether something has been proven or not (or whether it even is provable). This is because "belief" is often related to another concept.

Faith: Unquestioning belief, trust, or confidence that does not require proof or evidence.

Having faith in something means no proof is required. This is often the case when it comes to religious views. In fact, the nature of religion is based on the fact that no proofs are required. This is because religion covers ideas and topics that are beyond the ability of human perceptions or understanding.
And though many people may say, "I take my religion as fact," that is not quite accurate.
Though archaeological facts may prove certain aspects of a religion, the larger questions about human existence after death, intended miracles, and intelligent design of the universe are beyond the sorts of investigative studies we normally associate with "proving" something. Religious concepts beyond the physical can only be taken on faith. And faith is only a weakness to someone who sees the physical world as more important (or more "real").

Let me interpret that into English: "Belief means accepting made-up fairy tales as fact."

I'm all for holding spiritual ideas or ideas about life after death.  But at some point, you need an actual reason for holding those ideas.  You need more than wishy-thinking, or your ideas cannot be considered well-founded.

[Jehanne]

Pam Reynolds is one piece of anecdotal evidence that is no different than the claimed abductions by space aliens, and you should not take any of her past (she's deceased now) claims seriously.  The Catholic saint Don Bosco claimed to have had visions of hell and heaven and Saint Faustina claimed to have been in direct contact with Jesus.

Not the same thing, her testimony was corroborated witnesses and by medical records. Oddly enough, you weren't there but you seem to know the circumstances better than the professionals.

Again, if there is real evidence of NDEs, what can't the phenomenon be captured under control conditions?  Answer:  because it is not there???

Please explain your method for achieving this?

It's been documented in the Aware studies:

Of the 2,060 cardiac arrests during the study, 140 patients survived and could be interviewed for the study. Of these, 101 patients had detailed interviews, which identified 9 patients who had an NDE. Of the 9 NDErs, two had detailed memories with awareness of the physical environment. One NDEr's experience was verified as accurate; the other was too ill for an in-depth interview. These two NDEs occurred in non-acute areas where no visual target was present, so further verification of visual awareness was not possible. Further study and, perhaps, a reassessment of the methodology and goals of the study are warranted.

https://iands.org/news/news/front-page-n...ished.html

Why no visual target?  Get the target, have it replicated and I will become a substance dualist.

[downbeatplumb]

I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

What it means is that the word death in the bible is translated from the Greek word Thanatos which means separation.

http://biblehub.com/greek/2288.htm

2288 thánatos (derived from 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – physical or spiritual death; (figuratively) separation from the life (salvation) of God forever by dying without first experiencing death to self to receive His gift of salvation.

Thanatos was the greek god of non-violent death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanatos

In Greek mythology, Thanatos /ˈθænətɒs/[1] (Greek: Θάνατος [Ancient Greek: [tʰánatos]] "Death",[2] from θνῄσκω thnēskō "to die, be dying"[3][4]) was the personification of death. He was a minor figure in Greek mythology, often referred to, but rarely appearing in person.

In Greek vase painting Thanatos was depicted as a winged, bearded older man, or more rarely as a beardless youth. He often appears in a scene from the Iliad, opposite his brother Hypnos (Sleep) carrying off the body of Sarpedon. In Roman sculptural reliefs he was portrayed as a youth holding a down-turned torch and wreath or butterfly which symbolised the soul of the dead.

http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Thanatos.html

In fact nowhere can I find Thanatos as separation apart from where you have quoted.

In fact the only other usage of the word appears to be a Freudian term to do with a self destructive impulses.

[Huggy Bear]

Perhaps because you need to look in sources dealing with theology?

Btw that definition is from Strongs greek lexicon...

[downbeatplumb]

Perhaps because you need to look in sources dealing with theology?

Btw that definition is from Strongs greek lexicon...

But how far into the internet should I tumble to find evidence for what you say? I googled Thanatos and theology and am currently on page 5 with no reference to separation.

The closest I came was this.

Death of God theology is a predominately Christian theological movement, originating in the 1960s, in which God is posited as having ceased to exist, often at the crucifixion. It can also refer to a theology which includes a disbelief in traditional theism, especially in light of increasing secularism in parts of the West. The Death of God movement is sometimes technically referred to as "theothanatology," deriving from the Greek theos (God) and thanatos (death). The main proponents of this radical theology included the Christian theologians Gabriel Vahanian, Paul Van Buren, William Hamilton, John A.T. Robinson, Thomas J. J. Altizer, Mark C. Taylor, John D. Caputo, the rabbi Richard L. Rubenstein, and Peter Rollins.

I then googled thanatos and separation and lo there appeared a plethora of sources saying that it means that, but only from modern christian biblical sources. Interestingly when you look at greek transaltions of thanatos what it means is different to what the biblical apologists say.

 So I think that theologians changed the meaning of the word they were translating to meet their ideas.

They lied.

A trumpian move from the bible belt there.