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My views have somewhat changed
#11
RE: My views have somewhat changed
(February 10, 2017 at 3:15 am)Mirek-Polska Wrote: [...]Now, I realized there are many things I do think that kind of oppose religion such as:
I don't believe the earth is only 6000 years old
I believe in evolution
I don't believe the creation story, or genesis

To be fair - "Young Earth" creationists are considered dim-wits even among most christian denominations. Even the catholic pope officially accepts evolution as a fact - be it with some caveats. The thing about religion is, that - as a fantasy - it doesn't have to be consistent with anything, not with history, not with scientific facts, not even with itself. With enough mental gymnastics, accompanied by some hand-waving, you can fit anything into a religious world-view. Just as long as you really, really want that sky-cake...  Wink

(February 10, 2017 at 3:15 am)Mirek-Polska Wrote: I am not even sure I believe Jesus came back from the dead

Neither do the Jews and muslims. Nor any of the thousands other religions, that are not based on christianity. Sure, since you grew up with your particular faith, those other religions seem wacky and wrong, but of course - that's exactly how your beliefs appear to people outside of your church.

Religion is a good racket - whatever preconceived notions you may have, there's a sect out there more than happy to tell you exactly what you want to hear. Which is the first thing that should clue you in to the fact, that it's a scam.

Anyway - as an agnostic, you're practically an atheist. If you don't know whether or not there are gods - then you clearly don't believe in them. You may hope, or wish for them to exist, you may accept it as a possibility and take precautions, in case it turns out to be the actual state of things - but that's not what believing in something means.

I mean - of course you don't know, nobody does, but a theist, despite not knowing, when asked if there is a god will say "yes". And if you can't honestly give that answer - congratulations, you're an atheist. Welcome to the club... Smile Of course - "agnostic" sounds better, when talking to religious people, because it makes you look - to them - like an undecided, or an uninformed person, rather than like someone telling them their beliefs are false, so I guess living in a country like Poland, it's probably wise to stick to that label, if any.

We're all technically agnostic, when it comes to the veracity of un-falsifiable, un-testable claims. We can never know for sure, that there isn't a tea-pot orbiting the Sun out there, or that Santa Claus doesn't deliver gifts to children. But in the absence of evidence - and considering all the evidence suggesting, that religions are created and ran by dangerous lunatics and cynical frauds - it seems logical to disregard such ideas, for the time being and act as if our lives depend on us and the physical reality we live in - not whims of some bronze-age barbarians' imaginary friends.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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#12
RE: My views have somewhat changed
Well said HM ... I thought I saw the tea pot orbiting Jupiter, not the sun... but I could be wrong... Dunno
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#13
RE: My views have somewhat changed
(February 10, 2017 at 7:46 am)ignoramus Wrote: Well said HM ...  I thought I saw the tea pot orbiting Jupiter, not the sun... but I could be wrong... Dunno

Hmmm... Maybe it was the sugar-bowl, orbiting the Sun. Damn Russell, scattering his crockery all over the Universe... Tongue
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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#14
RE: My views have somewhat changed
(February 10, 2017 at 3:15 am)Mirek-Polska Wrote: I would like to thank the majority of people on this site for being so kind and taking the time to answer my questions. I am going to take a huge leap here, but honestly, I think it is time to think more critically.
I have now decided that I am an agnostic. I am still not 100% convinced that some of the concepts I have brought up are explainable by science, but I think that it is important to think critically as many have said. Before I was quite sure that religion is correct. Now, I realized there are many things I do think that kind of oppose religion such as:
I don't believe the earth is only 6000 years old
I believe in evolution
I don't believe the creation story, or genesis
I am not even sure I believe Jesus came back from the dead

Anyways, thanks for everything so far!
Mirek Worship Worship Worship 

Angel

Hi Mirek,

While I obviously think you're right to question you belief, I'm just a bit concerned that you've been swayed just a little too easily. I mean, if you can be swayed in a couple of days on an internet forum, chances are you could be easily swayed back the other way if you get any kind of RL pushback.

I think you got it right when you mentioned critical thinking. So, for example, you said that you don't believe the earth is 6000 years old. Why do you believe that? What evidence is there both in favour and against? What is about the older earth that means your religion isn't true? Not expecting and answer btw, just things you should be asking of yourself.

If you can answer these, then you're much more likely to be able to cut through any bs that might get thrown at you. And if someone says something that makes you rethink, ask the same questions - what claim is being made, evidence for/against, why is it relevant.

Good luck, and as you have already found out there are plenty here willing to help you out.
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#15
RE: My views have somewhat changed
(February 10, 2017 at 3:15 am)Mirek-Polska Wrote: I have now decided that I am an agnostic. I am still not 100% convinced that some of the concepts I have brought up are explainable by science, but I think that it is important to think critically as many have said. 


I wonder what exactly the category "explainable by science" means to you.  I don't look to science to explain a novel or to figure out who I love or what I care about, granted.  But all of those things are personal to me.  Of course science isn't going to explain them.

But aren't you carving out a little corner where you can go on imagining that there are divine purposes and supernatural means for achieving them?  I don't want that, don't need that and certainly don't have that .. and I'm not sorry.  But if it is what you find you have the most reason to believe what else can you really do?  Heck I'd understand if you decided to keep your beliefs exactly as you'd received them from your community.  Nothing wrong with that for those with a particular orientation.  It's up to you.
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#16
RE: My views have somewhat changed
I am not skeptic on being "swayed easily" cause most people who get swayed do so almost instantly, though the buildup to the point takes a while.

@Mirek, so what doubts do you still have remaining? An open discussion is the key to solving most problems you know
Quote:To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
- Lau Tzu

Join me on atheistforums Slack Cool Shades (pester tibs via pm if you need invite) Tongue

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#17
RE: My views have somewhat changed
Like everyone else, I want to say that this is great news. You're taking the first steps into a larger world.

I'd advise caution, however, in conflating unexplained by science with unexplainable. The first happens all the time; the second is impossible to know. If something seems to defy explanation, it's a very good sign that there's information we're missing - and that leads to scientific enquiry.

"To the rational mind, nothing is inexplicable - only unexplained."
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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