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RE: What is Atheism?
March 8, 2017 at 4:52 pm
...My opinion is that the theist claim has not met its burden of proof. And if you think that really is "no opinion" regarding the claim of theism...I dunno what to tell you. I don't think theism has met its burden of proof, I do not accept it as true or likely true, I'm an a-theist. Literally non-theist.
This is why I said earlier in the thread that labels can drive discussions down a rabbit hole of semantics, which is why I think we should put them aside if they get in the way and discuss what we actually believe. I don't believe a god exists, I don't believe that theism has met its burden of proof - label me whatever you want. Atheist is the label that seems to work for most people, and it's what I use by default.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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RE: What is Atheism?
March 8, 2017 at 4:53 pm
(This post was last modified: March 8, 2017 at 4:54 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(March 8, 2017 at 4:23 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: You seem to think that no atheists have experience of -- for lack of a better word -- the numinous. If so, you're wrong. It's just that most of us, I suppose, recognize the feelings associated with the experience as originating from within -- a byproduct of being a sentient being with a healthy human brain.
You are proving my point. I do believe many atheist have had experiences with the numinous. So we agree on that. The next step is to interpret that experience. Being an atheist necessarily entails other beliefs needed to exclude one particular interpretation of the evidence. You need reasons to prefer the set of explanations that exclude the divine. There is a burden of proof for justifying at preference, one the 'lack of belief' position tries to dodge.
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RE: What is Atheism?
March 8, 2017 at 4:56 pm
(This post was last modified: March 8, 2017 at 4:58 pm by Whateverist.)
(March 8, 2017 at 3:40 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (March 8, 2017 at 3:17 pm)SteveII Wrote: By redefining atheism as a "lack of belief" you mean non-theist and as such now encompass all the positions other than theism (atheists, agnostics, verificationists, babies, the impaired, my dog, and park benches). So 'atheism' ceases to have any meaning pertaining to a view of how the world is and simply becomes a psychological state.
Indeed. It trivializes the word.
I don't put a lot of stock in it, so trivialize away. It's of no concern to me. Atheist, non-theist, agnostic .. I answer to all of those. I don't wear "atheist" for any occasion that I wouldn't just as well go with "non-theist". "Agnostic" of course is for entirely different occasions. Between "agnostic" and the other two, I find "agnostic" the more significant in my own life. The other two truly are throw-away terms for things I'm not which don't really matter to me other than that, yes, technically they fit.
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RE: What is Atheism?
March 8, 2017 at 4:59 pm
(March 8, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I do believe many atheist have had experiences with the numinous. So we agree on that. The next step is to interpret that experience. Being an atheist necessarily entails other beliefs needed to exclude one particular interpretation of the evidence. You need reasons to prefer the set of explanations that exclude the divine.
Yes.
It's called "understanding the null hypothesis".
"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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RE: What is Atheism?
March 8, 2017 at 5:02 pm
(March 8, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (March 8, 2017 at 4:23 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: You seem to think that no atheists have experience of -- for lack of a better word -- the numinous. If so, you're wrong. It's just that most of us, I suppose, recognize the feelings associated with the experience as originating from within -- a byproduct of being a sentient being with a healthy human brain.
You are proving my point. I do believe many atheist have had experiences with the numinous. So we agree on that. The next step is to interpret that experience. Being an atheist necessarily entails other beliefs needed to exclude one particular interpretation of the evidence. You need reasons to prefer the set of explanations that exclude the divine. There is a burden of proof for justifying at preference, one the 'lack of belief' position tries to dodge.
The least controversial and most parsimonious starting place seems to me to be: The human brain gives rise to a number of extraordinary experiences under various circumstances. I'd prefer to rule out physiological/psychological explanations for these 'numinous' experiences before leaping to other explanations.
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RE: What is Atheism?
March 8, 2017 at 5:06 pm
(This post was last modified: March 8, 2017 at 5:09 pm by Whateverist.)
(March 8, 2017 at 4:17 pm)SteveII Wrote: (March 8, 2017 at 4:06 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: I'm not 'deliberately excluding' anything. I'm just not believing in a single claim because I don't think it's met its burden of proof.
But why does assessing a 'burden of proof' have anything to do with it. You could have never heard any proof (nor want to) and have a belief there is not God.
I have a different take on that. I'm fairly sure I've had experiences which believers would attribute to god. I just don't think that is what you think it is or where you think it is. I believe it's something built in and on board, not a separate entity at all. The human psyche is capable of producing many things, what we identify with as our 'selves' is just one of them.
I have no more proof for my intra-psychic god than you do for your concretized god and neither do I claim to have. In my opinion, people would be better off if they understood the numinous my way but I recognize that people may honestly disagree about what counts as "better off". I just can't make sense of a creator genie who poofs galaxies out of 'nothing', lives in the supernatural zone and bestows half of eternity upon us just so He can then reward or punish us forever. Weird stuff I'm not stuck with even though I'm quite able to embrace the numinous with open arms. Oh well, to each his own.
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RE: What is Atheism?
March 8, 2017 at 5:11 pm
(March 8, 2017 at 4:25 pm)Jesster Wrote: (March 8, 2017 at 3:17 pm)SteveII Wrote: By redefining atheism as a "lack of belief" you mean non-theist and as such now encompass all the positions other than theism (atheists, agnostics, verificationists, babies, the impaired, my dog, and park benches). So 'atheism' ceases to have any meaning pertaining to a view of how the world is and simply becomes a psychological state.
Yes. Atheist = not a theist. You're starting to get it now.
So then under that definition, an atheist can be one who believes in God... correct?
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RE: What is Atheism?
March 8, 2017 at 5:14 pm
(March 8, 2017 at 5:11 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (March 8, 2017 at 4:25 pm)Jesster Wrote: Yes. Atheist = not a theist. You're starting to get it now.
So then under that definition, an atheist can be one who believes in God... correct?
Wrong. How did you conclude that?
Theist = believes in a god
Atheist = not a theist = does not believe in a god
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RE: What is Atheism?
March 8, 2017 at 5:21 pm
(This post was last modified: March 8, 2017 at 5:23 pm by Simon Moon.)
(March 8, 2017 at 5:11 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (March 8, 2017 at 4:25 pm)Jesster Wrote: Yes. Atheist = not a theist. You're starting to get it now.
So then under that definition, an atheist can be one who believes in God... correct?
Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
Theism - Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.
Atheist - one who does not have the above belief.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: What is Atheism?
March 8, 2017 at 5:37 pm
(March 8, 2017 at 5:14 pm)Jesster Wrote: (March 8, 2017 at 5:11 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: So then under that definition, an atheist can be one who believes in God... correct?
Wrong. How did you conclude that?
Theist = believes in a god
Atheist = not a theist = does not believe in a god
(March 8, 2017 at 5:21 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (March 8, 2017 at 5:11 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: So then under that definition, an atheist can be one who believes in God... correct?
Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
Theism - Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.
Atheist - one who does not have the above belief.
Here is the reasoning, based on the definition given (Not a theist)
A deist is not a theist.
A deist does believe in God
Therefore one who is an atheist can believe in God, and still be an atheist.
Frankly, I preferred when the term "atheist" was more specific, and had more meaning.
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