Challenge - Scientific reason for being moral.

[tackattack]

@Radames- I also completely agree. You don't need the Bible to live a good or moral life.That's why it written that God's laws are written on your heart. If society was doing something you felt was morally objectionable would you stand up or adapt your personal moral code? Depending on your answer (I'll assume not follow society) you are using your own conscience or heart. But how do you develop it further if you feel your personal morality is more moral than society? I personally feel that a stable base is better for growing than shifting societal ideals. Especially at the exponential rate shifts happen in the information age.

@HIZ - if society shifted and it was acceptable to chop of the hand of a thief would you still find that moral... oh wait...
Coming for a country that only used to allow you to have 1 child not too long ago, these are the effects of basing your personal morality on society.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world...961538.cms
"The attackers did not know their victims personally , so the assaults must be an expression of their dissatisfaction with society."

[gargantuan]

Your friend is an ignoramus,I really wouldn't bother Be.like trying to communicate with an Orangutang.

I agree with padraic on this one. Although I wouldn't be so polite. You're friend is being a dick.

[Minimalist]

He says I need a scientific reason for being moral and for living by the secular humanism philosophy.

You need a better class of friends.

[Entropist]

He says I need a scientific reason for being moral and for living by the secular humanism philosophy.

Actually, you don't need to justify jack shit.

[Skipper]

@Radames- I also completely agree. You don't need the Bible to live a good or moral life.That's why it written that God's laws are written on your heart.

ARGH! Religion is so arrogant it's unbelievable. (not you tack, just religion in general). Taking credit for absolutely everything. Claiming it knows everything, claiming religion is part of everything, claiming god is part of everything, claiming god is with them then in the same breath claiming to those who don't believe, that god is beyond human understanding.

[socratation]

I would say that, in simple terms, because human beings are inherently social animals and rely upon that social network to survive a moral code is essential for society to function. Thus it is necessary for the survival of the human species. Virtually every other social mammal, well at least the "higher" species, have their own version of a moral code designed to maintain the stability of the group. Its not rocket science.

@Radames- I also completely agree. You don't need the Bible to live a good or moral life.That's why it written that God's laws are written on your heart. If society was doing something you felt was morally objectionable would you stand up or adapt your personal moral code? Depending on your answer (I'll assume not follow society) you are using your own conscience or heart. But how do you develop it further if you feel your personal morality is more moral than society? I personally feel that a stable base is better for growing than shifting societal ideals. Especially at the exponential rate shifts happen in the information age.

@HIZ - if society shifted and it was acceptable to chop of the hand of a thief would you still find that moral... oh wait...
Coming for a country that only used to allow you to have 1 child not too long ago, these are the effects of basing your personal morality on society.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world...961538.cms
"The attackers did not know their victims personally , so the assaults must be an expression of their dissatisfaction with society."

I think you are confusing the state, society and the social contract. I don't believe people are arguing that anything the authorities say is morally correct or that a moral code notionally "accepted" by society is always a good one (see Nazi Germany). However the fundamental element every general moral code is the social contract, be it at a relationship, family, town, national or international level. That social contract is bargained between individuals based on their own understanding of the justification behind social rules. My society has deemed it appropriate that homosexual people cannot marry unless they marry a member of the opposite sex, a position I personally find morally objectionable. The reason I find it morally objectionable is because I disagree with the reasoning its proponents use to justify that moral rule, shaped by my education and views on society, religion, relationships, sexuality and people. Any reasonably well adjusted human will make their own judgement on morality shaped by their wider views on such things and will, in their own small way, contribute to the social bargain. Within our society I am outnumbered on this position by those who do have an objection to same sex marriage, thus that element of my society's moral code is in my opinion immoral. But you have to expect this sort of flexibility and disagreement in any organic system made up of diverse individuals.

That stable base you speak of, I don't want to go over the number of actions justified in the bible which modern society would condemn as depraved, but they are indicative of an evolving social contract within the church. Why doesn't the Vatican condone burning at the stake for heresy or the stoning of women for adultery any more? Clearly the fact that the church has dispensed with some of the core elements of the Christian morality of days past demonstrates that Christianity’s moral code is no more a stable base than the wider social contract, it is only rendered less flexible by religious dogma.

[radames]

@Radames- I also completely agree. You don't need the Bible to live a good or moral life.That's why it written that God's laws are written on your heart.

ARGH! Religion is so arrogant it's unbelievable. (not you tack, just religion in general). Taking credit for absolutely everything. Claiming it knows everything, claiming religion is part of everything, claiming god is part of everything, claiming god is with them then in the same breath claiming to those who don't believe, that god is beyond human understanding.

A bit like the hiv/aids virus eh? Always there steadily crumbling away at your defenses until you are as helpless as a newborn babe; taking credit for all the viruses and bugs that destroy your body.

[Captain Scarlet]

The only people who work on ethics and morality who believe its the product of the divine are those whpo are religious to start with, ie they have something to prove. Therir reasoning is fragile and circular, and resorts to god is good by gods nature, which means absolutely nothing and is a fallacy of ambiguity. Ethicists who do not subscribe to theism, do not invoke god and have developed many theories on the development of morality and ethics (eg contractarianism is one such example ). Some new age M-theorsits also believe they have a germ of an idea where morality comes from; if its true we are all connected in some hyper-dimensioanl reality then harming others is nfact harming ourselves. Who knows what the answer is. They all beat the god hypothesis hands down on 2 counts:

1) occams razor - it can't be shown that these hypotehsis are any less right than an invocation of a god, but can be shown to to be simpler
2) these alternative hyposthesis have causal mechanisms which are testable or potentially testable as the maove from hypothesis to theory. God is never testable.

[tackattack]

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@Radames- I also completely agree. You don't need the Bible to live a good or moral life.That's why it written that God's laws are written on your heart.

ARGH! Religion is so arrogant it's unbelievable. (not you tack, just religion in general). Taking credit for absolutely everything. Claiming it knows everything, claiming religion is part of everything, claiming god is part of everything, claiming god is with them then in the same breath claiming to those who don't believe, that god is beyond human understanding.

---

I can empathize with your frustrations. Next time someone uses that line of reasoning say, "God is beyond your understanding, if you don't know your God why follow him?
"

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I would say that, in simple terms, because human beings are inherently social animals and rely upon that social network to survive a moral code is essential for society to function. Thus it is necessary for the survival of the human species. Virtually every other social mammal, well at least the "higher" species, have their own version of a moral code designed to maintain the stability of the group. Its not rocket science.

@Radames- I also completely agree. You don't need the Bible to live a good or moral life.That's why it written that God's laws are written on your heart. If society was doing something you felt was morally objectionable would you stand up or adapt your personal moral code? Depending on your answer (I'll assume not follow society) you are using your own conscience or heart. But how do you develop it further if you feel your personal morality is more moral than society? I personally feel that a stable base is better for growing than shifting societal ideals. Especially at the exponential rate shifts happen in the information age.

@HIZ - if society shifted and it was acceptable to chop of the hand of a thief would you still find that moral... oh wait...
Coming for a country that only used to allow you to have 1 child not too long ago, these are the effects of basing your personal morality on society.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world...961538.cms
"The attackers did not know their victims personally , so the assaults must be an expression of their dissatisfaction with society."

I think you are confusing the state, society and the social contract. I don't believe people are arguing that anything the authorities say is morally correct or that a moral code notionally "accepted" by society is always a good one (see Nazi Germany). However the fundamental element every general moral code is the social contract, be it at a relationship, family, town, national or international level. That social contract is bargained between individuals based on their own understanding of the justification behind social rules. My society has deemed it appropriate that homosexual people cannot marry unless they marry a member of the opposite sex, a position I personally find morally objectionable. The reason I find it morally objectionable is because I disagree with the reasoning its proponents use to justify that moral rule, shaped by my education and views on society, religion, relationships, sexuality and people. Any reasonably well adjusted human will make their own judgement on morality shaped by their wider views on such things and will, in their own small way, contribute to the social bargain. Within our society I am outnumbered on this position by those who do have an objection to same sex marriage, thus that element of my society's moral code is in my opinion immoral. But you have to expect this sort of flexibility and disagreement in any organic system made up of diverse individuals.

That stable base you speak of, I don't want to go over the number of actions justified in the bible which modern society would condemn as depraved, but they are indicative of an evolving social contract within the church. Why doesn't the Vatican condone burning at the stake for heresy or the stoning of women for adultery any more? Clearly the fact that the church has dispensed with some of the core elements of the Christian morality of days past demonstrates that Christianity’s moral code is no more a stable base than the wider social contract, it is only rendered less flexible by religious dogma.

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I don't believe I am. You're talking about the general will governing actions within it's social contruct. Each social construct has is's on social contract that teh governed agreeto be governed by. As an atheist you discount God being a part of reality. From a Chrisitian perspetive God is a reality. God has made a covenant (read social contract) with his flock (read governed). I've already shown that God's law is extraneous from the Bible. However we do have the Bible, and why would I not use every tool available (especially one that is written) to clarify that contract. The mere fact that God would exist outside the universe would add objectivity to his stability. That is the very essence of why Christians believe in an Absolute good and call him God. An absolute would be more stable than a social bargain. The Bible is the living word of God (from my nomination's perspective) and is inspired by God but subject to verification and examination of each indiviudal and their unique perspective. The words don't change, just our understanding of them (like the constitution). Some poeple use those words for hatred and greed (just like a constitution), but when taken in context those that stray from the written word can be brought to light. This, IMO, makes it far more acceptable solution as a tool for my own moral bettermentthan any societal contract.

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@Radames- I also completely agree. You don't need the Bible to live a good or moral life.That's why it written that God's laws are written on your heart.

ARGH! Religion is so arrogant it's unbelievable. (not you tack, just religion in general). Taking credit for absolutely everything. Claiming it knows everything, claiming religion is part of everything, claiming god is part of everything, claiming god is with them then in the same breath claiming to those who don't believe, that god is beyond human understanding.

A bit like the hiv/aids virus eh? Always there steadily crumbling away at your defenses until you are as helpless as a newborn babe; taking credit for all the viruses and bugs that destroy your body.

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It's the fear and hate and hope for reward I have problems with. In m class we just get together and talk about God. I told my brother when he said he needed to go to church and find religion; I said "You don't need religion, you need God, no one needs religion."