"Cultural Appropriation"

[bennyboy]

Indeed, it doesn't mean the same thing to all people. Intention is very important when it comes to what is acceptable to me or not. If you use a racial slur to tell me a joke that is just clever, and I know you're not actually a racist, I don't care. If you scream racial slurs at someone because they cut you off in traffic, I'm pissed.

Using the pissing on the grave analogy, someone else might be horribly offended by it. However, there's a musician whose fans go out of their way to piss on his grave because it's what he would have wanted. They do it out of love.

What if someone pissed on the American flag?  Would Americans be right to be offended, on the grounds that it was a highly symbolic artifact for them?  Could you say, I made it myself from fabric from China, so it's not REALLY a "real" American flag?

If I knew an American, could I as a Canadian, be right to say, "I don't give a shit about this flag.  I own it, I think it looks cool, and I enjoy pissing on it.  Mind your own fucking business"?

What if I printed American Flag toilet paper, so people from countries all over the world could constantly show what they think of America's culture and people?  Would you support that?

[ManofYesterday]

Indeed, it doesn't mean the same thing to all people. Intention is very important when it comes to what is acceptable to me or not. If you use a racial slur to tell me a joke that is just clever, and I know you're not actually a racist, I don't care. If you scream racial slurs at someone because they cut you off in traffic, I'm pissed.

Using the pissing on the grave analogy, someone else might be horribly offended by it. However, there's a musician whose fans go out of their way to piss on his grave because it's what he would have wanted. They do it out of love.

What if someone pissed on the American flag?  Would Americans be right to be offended, on the grounds that it was a highly symbolic artifact for them?  Could you say, I made it myself from fabric from China, so it's not REALLY a "real" American flag?

If I knew an American, could I as a Canadian, be right to say, "I don't give a shit about this flag.  I own it, I think it looks cool, and I enjoy pissing on it.  Mind your own fucking business"?

What if I printed American Flag toilet paper, so people from countries all over the world could constantly show what they think of America's culture and people?  Would you support that?

Who gives a shit about this kind of stuff? Are you gay?

Lmao.

[Shell B]

Indeed, it doesn't mean the same thing to all people. Intention is very important when it comes to what is acceptable to me or not. If you use a racial slur to tell me a joke that is just clever, and I know you're not actually a racist, I don't care. If you scream racial slurs at someone because they cut you off in traffic, I'm pissed.

Using the pissing on the grave analogy, someone else might be horribly offended by it. However, there's a musician whose fans go out of their way to piss on his grave because it's what he would have wanted. They do it out of love.

What if someone pissed on the American flag?  Would Americans be right to be offended, on the grounds that it was a highly symbolic artifact for them?  Could you say, I made it myself from fabric from China, so it's not REALLY a "real" American flag?

If I knew an American, could I as a Canadian, be right to say, "I don't give a shit about this flag.  I own it, I think it looks cool, and I enjoy pissing on it.  Mind your own fucking business"?

What if I printed American Flag toilet paper, so people from countries all over the world could constantly show what they think of America's culture and people?  Would you support that?

I wouldn't care. In fact, I've had this conversation many times and support people doing what they want to the flag. I respect it in my home. I don't project that onto other people. I'm sorry, but you're not going to find an example that bothers me. Unless you piss on something I, or someone other than you who hasn't given you permission, physically own, a human being or an animal, I'm not bothered. Yes, people should mind their own fucking business.

---

Yeah, yeah, I'm part native, too.  But I don't identify much with my tribe (it's Penobscot) because it's ancient history.  Being 1/16 or 1/32 native (or whatever it is) means very little about how I should treat people with a cultural grievance.

Your connection with your Native roots has nothing to do with mine. Moreover, just because your connection is ancient history doesn't mean mine is. You're making excuses to be dismissive of my opinion because you imagine I'm too white to be allowed one. Piss off.

[bennyboy]

Your connection with your Native roots has nothing to do with mine. Moreover, just because your connection is ancient history doesn't mean mine is. You're making excuses to be dismissive of my opinion because you imagine I'm too white to be allowed one. Piss off.

So if you are "native enough" by your genetics, that means that you get to disregard Tizheruk's feelings about his culture, and the icons which represent it? If you are, in fact, native, then you would not be guilty of cultural appropriation, by any definition, for using a symbol associated with your own heritage. So what are you even talking about? If you had come into the thread and said, "I'm native, but I don't think it's a problem if white people own a dream catcher just because they like it," then your view would have been relevant to the discussion I was having with Tizheruk at that time.

[Shell B]

Your connection with your Native roots has nothing to do with mine. Moreover, just because your connection is ancient history doesn't mean mine is. You're making excuses to be dismissive of my opinion because you imagine I'm too white to be allowed one. Piss off.

So if you are "native enough" by your genetics, that means that you get to disregard Tizheruk's feelings about his culture, and the icons which represent it?  If you are, in fact, native, then you would not be guilty of cultural appropriation, by any definition, for using a symbol associated with your own heritage.  So what are you even talking about?  If you had come into the thread and said, "I'm native, but I don't think it's a problem if white people own a dream catcher just because they like it," then your view would have been relevant to the discussion I was having with Tizheruk at that time.

What the fuck is native enough? Also, and for the last time, I did not disregard Tiz's feelings. I said I thought they were ridiculous. Nothing about race, creed or gender revokes my right to an opinion. Furthermore, it doesn't matter at all what discussion you were having with Tiz. I wasn't interjecting on that conversation. I told Tiz what I thought about his or her feelings on cultural appropriation. You were free to carry on with your discussion, as my comments had naught to do with it. I mean, tough shit if you don't like it.

[bennyboy]

So if you are "native enough" by your genetics, that means that you get to disregard Tizheruk's feelings about his culture, and the icons which represent it?  If you are, in fact, native, then you would not be guilty of cultural appropriation, by any definition, for using a symbol associated with your own heritage.  So what are you even talking about?  If you had come into the thread and said, "I'm native, but I don't think it's a problem if white people own a dream catcher just because they like it," then your view would have been relevant to the discussion I was having with Tizheruk at that time.

What the fuck is native enough? Also, and for the last time, I did not disregard Tiz's feelings. I said I thought they were ridiculous. Nothing about race, creed or gender revokes my right to an opinion. Furthermore, it doesn't matter at all what discussion you were having with Tiz. I wasn't interjecting on that conversation. I told Tiz what I thought about his or her feelings on cultural appropriation. You were free to carry on with your discussion, as my comments had naught to do with it. I mean, tough shit if you don't like it.

I don't know what "native enough" is. You keep alluding to how native you are, and how I'm so wrong about you being an entitled white girl, and how my native background is trivial, but yours is something that matters. So feel free to tell me what you think is native enough-- it's your concept, so own it.

Yeah, and I'm also free to say that your ideas are both ridiculous and unnecessarily sensitive.  The only way to guarantee that nobody wonders about your motivations at ridiculing someone is not to ridicule them.  You did ridicule Tiz, and I do wonder at your motivations, and said so.  Tough shit if you don't like it.

Now, we can go back-and-forth for fifty pages if you want, but I'm pretty much done here and really have nothing more to say to you unless you keep addressing posts to me.  You can decide if that's how you want to spend your time.

[Shell B]

Yeah, and I'm also free to say that your ideas are both ridiculous and unnecessarily sensitive.

Sensitive or insensitive, champ? I never tried to say you aren't free to say anything. That was your trope, remember?

The only way to guarantee that nobody wonders about your motivations at ridiculing someone is not to ridicule them.

Don't care if they wonder at my motivations. I'm not sure what gave you that idea.

You did ridicule Tiz, and I do wonder at your motivations, and said so.

I never said I didn't ridicule Tiz. Don't give a fuck if I did. I only said I didn't dismiss him or her. My motivations are simple. I think being a pissy bitch about a dreamcatcher is lame. I'm not going to show it any more respect than the cross. That was pretty easy to suss out. Not sure what you've still got to wonder about.

Tough shit if you don't like it.

Lucky you, I don't mind.

Now, we can go back-and-forth for fifty pages if you want, but I'm pretty much done here and really have nothing more to say to you unless you keep addressing posts to me.  You can decide if that's how you want to spend your time.

Meh. Don't care either way. You're spending your time this way (even more of it, I'd wager), so try not to sound like it's below you.

Hey, have at it if you want to buy into this cultural appropriation sobfest. I won't stop you from being foolish. I'll defend your right to be so, in fact.

---

I don't know what "native enough" is.  You keep alluding to how native you are, and how I'm so wrong about you being an entitled white girl, and how my native background is trivial, but yours is something that matters.  So feel free to tell me what you think is native enough-- it's your concept, so own it.

Reading comprehension matters. Firstly, you now think I'm entitled? Hilarious. No, that's seriously hilarious. You really can't read people, can you? Also, I didn't say your native background was trivial. You said it was trivial, dinglebert. You brought up amounts of native blood. I don't think there is any native enough. If you identify as native, you do. If you don't, you don't. I don't care remotely. I can't believe you're attributing shit you said to me. Bizarre.

[bennyboy]

Sensitive or insensitive, champ?

Yep, you got me.

The only way to guarantee that nobody wonders about your motivations at ridiculing someone is not to ridicule them.

Don't care if they wonder at my motivations. I'm not sure what gave you that idea.

Because when I questioned your motivations, you went feral. And you're still talking about that initial encounter.

You did ridicule Tiz, and I do wonder at your motivations, and said so.

I never said I didn't ridicule Tiz. Don't give a fuck if I did. I only said I didn't dismiss him or her. My motivations are simple. I think being a pissy bitch about a dreamcatcher is lame. I'm not going to show it any more respect than the cross. That was pretty easy to suss out. Not sure what you've still got to wonder about.

I agree with you about the dreamcatcher, in that I don't really care that much either. However, Tiz is just about the best example of a cultural appropriation claim that I could think of. I might not act on his wishes (I'm gonna be embarrassed if Tiz is a "she"), but there's no real reason to insult someone who has a legitimate beef against the culture he lvies in.

Tough shit if you don't like it.

Lucky you, I don't mind.

Yeah, I can see that and respect that.

Hey, have at it if you want to buy into this cultural appropriation sobfest.

You might want to check again who the OP was, and what they said.

Reading comprehension matters. Firstly, you now think I'm entitled? Hilarious. No, that's seriously hilarious. You really can't read people, can you? Also, I didn't say your native background was trivial. You said it was trivial, dinglebert. You brought up amounts of native blood. I don't think there is any native enough. If you identify as native, you do. If you don't, you don't. I don't care remotely. I can't believe you're attributing shit you said to me. Bizarre.

I said that even though I'm native, since I don't really associate with that culture, I'm not in a position to speak for natives. You said I'd be surprised just how very native you are, and I'm making assumptions about your non-nativeness, etc. etc. I can produce quotes if you don't think you said that.

[The Grand Nudger]

Khemical, I have no idea why you're unwilling to admit that at least a large portion of the world doesn't define cultural appropriation the way that you do. I provided definitions and usages from two of the most prestigious dictionaries in the world. Yet, you still continue to make statements like "that's not cultural appropriation the way the term means" and "unless you're an alt-white racist, your culture doesn't think of cultural appropriation as buying a dream catcher." The only time I've seen cultural appropriation described as you have just described it is by you in this thread. I bet that's the case for several people.

Shell....I've spent the entirety of this thread...since my very first post, explaining nothing -other- than the fact that cultuiral appropriation as used by both the psycho sjws and their non psycho peers in social sciences and race studies is -not- what most people think it is (and...specifically, that it's -not- what those psycho sjws think it is).  That it -doesn't- refer to the things they think it does.  I just don't understand what the fuck you're on about, and I get that you may have been previously oblivious to the use and the argument...but so what - you can't be now, after my explaining it multiple times.

ETA: I did see that you used the term "in my usage" in your most recent post, Khemical. Well, there you go. The way you define it, it's shitty. I doubt that's in question. Killing, hurting, disenfranchising people and then using their culture is bad. Having dreadlocks is not. /thread.

You doubt it;s in question?  It;s not my fault that you haven't read the thread or the comments I;ve fielded after trying to offer clarity.  It never will be.  Not only is it in doubt that cultural appropriation -as I've defined it- is a bad thing™ in this thread..it's in doubt in the wider world..and it's inclusion in the same category as learning a language demonstrates that it's fundamentally overlooked and not given due attention.  That's -why- folks offered a more specific use of the term in the first place.

Yes, disenfrachising and exploiting is bad, dreadlocks are not... you and I think that would be the end of the thread...that's what I've been saying for pages and pages and pages...and yet it lives, lol.  So maybe those folks who argued for a more specific use of language have a point after all, eh? Look at this thread. It's purportedly about something very real, very terrible, and very simple to understand. Instead..it's a trainwreck of racial guilt, of people out or under nativing each other...of people claiming or denying gender privilege or how hard their life was. Of people trying to grab some deference for their religious paraphernalia. Of "I'm not a racist, you're a racist" shitposts. It stinks so bad it drew the actual alt white flies.

That's entirely representative of peoples misunderstanding and confusion surrounding the term and it's use -by any definition-. It would be hilarious if it weren't so horrible.

[Shell B]