The First Century Void

[Minimalist]

True, but what he does not seem to grasp is that what is needed is a manuscript which predates Eusebius, as after that only Eusebius' copies of Josephus survive.  They could have written Wonder Woman in the later manuscripts and it wouldn't make fuckall of a difference to the original Josephan text.

[Cyberman]

There's a fun little exercise to which I've never yet seen an honest response, which I'll quote here:

This is the full Chapter 3 of Josephus' Antiquities Book XVIII, minus the Testimonium Flavianum. I've also stripped it of paragraph numbering and footnotes:

SEDITION OF THE JEWS AGAINST PONTIUS PILATE. CONCERNING CHRIST, AND WHAT BEFELL PAULINA AND THE JEWS AT ROME.

BUT now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea.

But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina; one who, on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation: she was also very rich; and although she was of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age wherein women are the most gay, yet did she lead a life of great modesty. She was married to Saturninus, one that was every way answerable to her in an excellent character. Decius Mundus fell in love with this woman, who was a man very high in the equestrian order; and as she was of too great dignity to be caught by presents, and had already rejected them, though they had been sent in great abundance, he was still more inflamed with love to her, insomuch that he promised to give her two hundred thousand Attic drachmae for one night's lodging; and when this would not prevail upon her, and he was not able to bear this misfortune in his amours, he thought it the best way to famish himself to death for want of food, on account of Paulina's sad refusal; and he determined with himself to die after such a manner, and he went on with his purpose accordingly. Now Mundus had a freed-woman, who had been made free by his father, whose name was Ide, one skillful in all sorts of mischief. This woman was very much grieved at the young man's resolution to kill himself, (for he did not conceal his intentions to destroy himself from others,) and came to him, and encouraged him by her discourse, and made him to hope, by some promises she gave him, that he might obtain a night's lodging with Paulina; and when he joyfully hearkened to her entreaty, she said she wanted no more than fifty thousand drachmae for the entrapping of the woman. So when she had encouraged the young man, and gotten as much money as she required, she did not take the same methods as had been taken before, because she perceived that the woman was by no means to be tempted by money; but as she knew that she was very much given to the worship of the goddess Isis, she devised the following stratagem: She went to some of Isis's priests, and upon the strongest assurances [of concealment], she persuaded them by words, but chiefly by the offer of money, of twenty-five thousand drachmae in hand, and as much more when the thing had taken effect; and told them the passion of the young man, and persuaded them to use all means possible to beguile the woman. So they were drawn in to promise so to do, by that large sum of gold they were to have. Accordingly, the oldest of them went immediately to Paulina; and upon his admittance, he desired to speak with her by herself. When that was granted him, he told her that he was sent by the god Anubis, who was fallen in love with her, and enjoined her to come to him. Upon this she took the message very kindly, and valued herself greatly upon this condescension of Anubis, and told her husband that she had a message sent her, and was to sup and lie with Anubis; so he agreed to her acceptance of the offer, as fully satisfied with the chastity of his wife. Accordingly, she went to the temple, and after she had supped there, and it was the hour to go to sleep, the priest shut the doors of the temple, when, in the holy part of it, the lights were also put out. Then did Mundus leap out, (for he was hidden therein,) and did not fail of enjoying her, who was at his service all the night long, as supposing he was the god; and when he was gone away, which was before those priests who knew nothing of this stratagem were stirring, Paulina came early to her husband, and told him how the god Anubis had appeared to her. Among her friends, also, she declared how great a value she put upon this favor, who partly disbelieved the thing, when they reflected on its nature, and partly were amazed at it, as having no pretense for not believing it, when they considered the modesty and the dignity of the person. But now, on the third day after what had been done, Mundus met Paulina, and said, "Nay, Paulina, thou hast saved me two hundred thousand drachmae, which sum thou sightest have added to thy own family; yet hast thou not failed to be at my service in the manner I invited thee. As for the reproaches thou hast laid upon Mundus, I value not the business of names; but I rejoice in the pleasure I reaped by what I did, while I took to myself the name of Anubis." When he had said this, he went his way. But now she began to come to the sense of the grossness of what she had done, and rent her garments, and told her husband of the horrid nature of this wicked contrivance, and prayed him not to neglect to assist her in this case. So he discovered the fact to the emperor; whereupon Tiberius inquired into the matter thoroughly by examining the priests about it, and ordered them to be crucified, as well as Ide, who was the occasion of their perdition, and who had contrived the whole matter, which was so injurious to the woman. He also demolished the temple of Isis, and gave order that her statue should be thrown into the river Tiber; while he only banished Mundus, but did no more to him, because he supposed that what crime he had committed was done out of the passion of love. And these were the circumstances which concerned the temple of Isis, and the injuries occasioned by her priests. I now return to the relation of what happened about this time to the Jews at Rome, as I formerly told you I would.

There was a man who was a Jew, but had been driven away from his own country by an accusation laid against him for transgressing their laws, and by the fear he was under of punishment for the same; but in all respects a wicked man. He, then living at Rome, professed to instruct men in the wisdom of the laws of Moses. He procured also three other men, entirely of the same character with himself, to be his partners. These men persuaded Fulvia, a woman of great dignity, and one that had embraced the Jewish religion, to send purple and gold to the temple at Jerusalem; and when they had gotten them, they employed them for their own uses, and spent the money themselves, on which account it was that they at first required it of her. Whereupon Tiberius, who had been informed of the thing by Saturninus, the husband of Fulvia, who desired inquiry might be made about it, ordered all the Jews to be banished out of Rome; at which time the consuls listed four thousand men out of them, and sent them to the island Sardinia; but punished a greater number of them, who were unwilling to become soldiers, on account of keeping the laws of their forefathers. Thus were these Jews banished out of the city by the wickedness of four men.

And here is the TF paragraph:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Can you identify, purely from the text as it stands, precisely where the TF ought to fit into the main body? Try to put aside any preconceived knowledge of the text and approach this at face value.

[RoadRunner79]

The work I'm referring to is from the 10th century, although they believe that the Greek and Arabic versions diverges a while before that.

However the question still remains, what facts or reasons, do you think that this version is an interpolation?

10th century or 12th, it's still at least the better part of nine hundred years after the fact. Plenty of room for a little 'creative accounting'; especially when you throw people with access to original documents and an agenda into the mix.

But we are only allowed to assume that creative accounting in one direction right? 
Also... still looking for evidence for these claims.

[Cyberman]

Irony much?

[GUBU]

True, but what he does not seem to grasp is that what is needed is a manuscript which predates Eusebius, as after that only Eusebius' copies of Josephus survive.  They could have written Wonder Woman in the later manuscripts and it wouldn't make fuckall of a difference to the original Josephan text.

It's a pity no unadulterated copies lasted all the way. We do know of their existence at the 10th century, for Photius I patriarch of Constantinople mentions owning original Aramaic copies of Josephus' works and specifically saying they didn't mention Jesus (castigating Eusebius for his forgeries), and a scholar as recent as Erasmus (IIRC) also mentioned Hebrew copies of Josephus copied directly from originals which made no mention of Jesus.

We're really only a few hundred years out of being able to have definitive proof of Eusebius' forgeries.

[Minimalist]

10th century or 12th, it's still at least the better part of nine hundred years after the fact. Plenty of room for a little 'creative accounting'; especially when you throw people with access to original documents and an agenda into the mix.

But we are only allowed to assume that creative accounting in one direction right? 
Also... still looking for evidence for these claims.

What incentive would Origen have had to ignore the TF if it had existed?  It would have clinched the case he was trying to make in Contra Celsus.  Instead he was forced to blame the destruction of Jerusalem on the execution of "James the Just."

Richard Carrier's On The Historicity of Jesus is the first and so far only book which examines all the evidence relating to the godboy stories.  You can read it if you dare.  I suspect you will run the other way in terror.  You know the old adage about leading a horse to water.......

[Cyberman]

But we are only allowed to assume that creative accounting in one direction right?

Someone removed passages?

[RoadRunner79]

But we are only allowed to assume that creative accounting in one direction right?

Someone removed passages?

Sorry.... I thought we where making accusations, without support.

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But we are only allowed to assume that creative accounting in one direction right? 
Also... still looking for evidence for these claims.

What incentive would Origen have had to ignore the TF if it had existed?  It would have clinched the case he was trying to make in Contra Celsus.  Instead he was forced to blame the destruction of Jerusalem on the execution of "James the Just."

Richard Carrier's On The Historicity of Jesus is the first and so far only book which examines all the evidence relating to the godboy stories.  You can read it if you dare.  I suspect you will run the other way in terror.  You know the old adage about leading a horse to water.......

Ohh... the if you dare scare.... why don't you just give your reasons why.... instead of volumes of silence....

Basically your premise seems to be, that if one didn't quote from the source you would prefer, then it must not have happened yet.... by that reasoning, and the number of times, that I have asked for the evidence, I'm assuming that anything you post after is ad hoc... made up B.S. You would have quoted it already, if it was there, Right?

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There's a fun little exercise to which I've never yet seen an honest response, which I'll quote here:

This is the full Chapter 3 of Josephus' Antiquities Book XVIII, minus the Testimonium Flavianum. I've also stripped it of paragraph numbering and footnotes:


And here is the TF paragraph:


Can you identify, purely from the text as it stands, precisely where the TF ought to fit into the main body? Try to put aside any preconceived knowledge of the text and approach this at face value.

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This sounds good..... but if you think about it, you could do the same thing in quite a few places with various text.

[Cyberman]

We're not talking about various text; we're talking about Josephus. You realise that deflection isn't actually answering the question, right?

[RoadRunner79]

We're not talking about various text; we're talking about Josephus. You realise that deflection isn't actually answering the question, right?

Yes,. I was talking about Josephus also.... I think you could easily do the same thing with the last paragraph as well.