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The First Century Void
#41
RE: The First Century Void
(June 20, 2017 at 10:34 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Well how it seems to me is that Paul and people around him invented Jesus à la L. Ron Hubbard.

More likely that "paul" was invented.... in the same manner as mohammed was invented to be allah's mouthpiece.

I might add that "moses" was invented to be yhwh's mouthpiece.  There is something about the all-powerful yet somehow shy gods who can't speak to crowds.  An oddity.
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#42
RE: The First Century Void
I had an emergency work call, and I'm out of town with crappy internet. Also going on vacation next week, so I'm not really able to properly respond to a change of topic right now.

But I see volumes of silence To what I have said, in my responses to the OP. Further what the mythesist doesn't want you to notice, in talking about the argument from silence is that their position is rather silent until very late (about the 18th century).

In regards to Josephus. There is a definite interpolation in the Greek text. However, many scholars (I have heard the vast majority) do agree that the shorter version of the testimonium without the praising launguage of Jesus, does have a core nucleus that is authentic. Further the other to passages of Josephus which mention James the brother of Christ and John the Baptist are rarely contested.

What people should look at; is what are the facts, what are people adding, and what reason do they have to do so.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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#43
RE: The First Century Void
Your weak objections were instantaneously dismissed as apologetic horseshit.  What more is there to be said about them?

As far as Josephus goes, do you understand that a bunch of jesus freaks sat there, trying to breathe life back into that obvious forgery, and tried to strike out all of what they considered the obvious bullshit statements in the TF.  What was left, they declared without a shred of evidence, was was Josephus must have written originally.  Except there is no evidence for such a statement which had it existed would have served a writer such as Origen quite well when he was groping for a reason why Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans.  ( Origen blames it on the murder of "James the Just! ). 

Oddly, Josephus himself, in The Jewish War, blames the destruction on the Zealots murdering priests inside the temple itself.  How do you suppose Origen missed that?  Or do you never think about things that might be inconvenient to your bullshit?
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#44
RE: The First Century Void
You only show your ignorance on the subject... the version I'm speaking of, is an earlier Arabic version of Josephus. However, if you want to give the facts and reasons for what you are proposing. I'm all ears. Fanciful narratives, which ignore the facts; however, don't cut it. Neither does simply dismissing them because of the source.

(June 22, 2017 at 12:21 pm)Minimalist Wrote: It's all well and good to assert that there are 7 authentic pauline epistles except we know they have been tampered with.

http://vridar.org/2017/05/26/why-many-in...ry-likely/


Quote:William Walker, Jr’s conclusion, then, is that

But, perhaps even worse....

https://www.umass.edu/wsp/alpha/texts/pa...tions.html

This notes the detected interpolations but the old adage "when one lie is detected a thousand must be suspected" comes into play.

Where does the "authentic" part come in?

From you quote, it seems to be assumed from the start
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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#45
RE: The First Century Void
Quote:the version I'm speaking of, is an earlier Arabic version of Josephus.
This is why apologists are such fucking assholes.  Someone tells you something you want to hear and you run with it like you have diarrhea of the mouth.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-hist...ian-020778

Quote:The oldest known Arabic writing found in Saudi Arabia, from ca. 470 AD belong to a Christian context and predates the advent of Islam with 150 years.

In December 2015, researchers from a French-Saudi expedition studying rock inscriptions in southern Saudi Arabia published a 100-page-long report in France’s Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres that reported that the oldest Arabic text, carved on a large rectangular stone that was found in Saudi Arabia, is simply of a name, “Thawban (son of) Malik,” decorated with a Christian cross. The same cross systematically appears on the other similar stelae dating more or less to the same period.


470 AD was 140 years AFTER Eusebius forged the TF.  Grow the fuck up will you.  You are embarrassing yourself.
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#46
RE: The First Century Void
BTW, you're probably referring to the Syriac version.... written by Michael the Syrian who lived in the 12th century and who used Eusebius' work, not Josephus', for his World Chronicle.

Sorry.  The TF is a pile of shit.

Recall what Bishop Warburton said:  It (the TF) is a rank forgery and a very stupid one.

Warburton died in 1779.
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#47
RE: The First Century Void
(June 22, 2017 at 11:45 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:the version I'm speaking of, is an earlier Arabic version of Josephus.
This is why apologists are such fucking assholes.  Someone tells you something you want to hear and you run with it like you have diarrhea of the mouth.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-hist...ian-020778

Quote:The oldest known Arabic writing found in Saudi Arabia, from ca. 470 AD belong to a Christian context and predates the advent of Islam with 150 years.

In December 2015, researchers from a French-Saudi expedition studying rock inscriptions in southern Saudi Arabia published a 100-page-long report in France’s Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres that reported that the oldest Arabic text, carved on a large rectangular stone that was found in Saudi Arabia, is simply of a name, “Thawban (son of) Malik,” decorated with a Christian cross. The same cross systematically appears on the other similar stelae dating more or less to the same period.


470 AD was 140 years AFTER Eusebius forged the TF.  Grow the fuck up will you.  You are embarrassing yourself.

So what... now you are eliminating an entire language? Because of a connection to Christianity. That seems ridiculous to me!

Also, so which version are you saying is an interpolation from Esebius? It appears that you are first saying one thing, and then another. Are you a politician?

(June 23, 2017 at 12:53 am)Minimalist Wrote: BTW, you're probably referring to the Syriac version.... written by Michael the Syrian who lived in the 12th century and who used Eusebius' work, not Josephus', for his World Chronicle.

Sorry.  The TF is a pile of shit.

Recall what Bishop Warburton said:  It (the TF) is a rank forgery and a very stupid one.

Warburton died in 1779.

The work I'm referring to is from the 10th century, although they believe that the Greek and Arabic versions diverges a while before that.

However the question still remains, what facts or reasons, do you think that this version is an interpolation?
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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#48
RE: The First Century Void
A scholar named Alice Wheatley demonstrated back in 2008 that both the later Greek and Syriac variants of the TF derived from Eusebius, not Josephus.  Give it up, already.  It's a fraud.  And it is a fraud for the same reason that recent jesus freaks tried to pump life back into it in the 19th and early 20th centuries.  They are embarrassed by the utter void in the historical record of their alleged godboy.  And so they should be embarrassed.

Since you have nothing to add except the tired old TF horseshit, I will move on. 

On page 293 Carrier writes:


Quote:
Quote:Thus, there are only a few possibilities with any respectable chance of
being true. Either all the evidence of the first decades of Christianity was
actively (and very successfully) suppressed, or it was uncontrol lably (and
very thoroughly) lost despite every desire to preserve it, or Christianity was
so small, insignificant and pervasively illiterate that such evidence never
existed

I do have a problem with Carrier because he chooses not to deal with the obvious answer to his own question, that jesusism was a creation of the 2d century not the first but right now I'll play his game.  He goes on to list a bunch of writers who wrote of first century issues in Judaea:

Nicolaus of Damascus, Justus of Tiberias, Philo of Alexandria and Josephus ( who, when you eliminate the xtian forgeries never had anything to say about fucking jesus, either, just like the others.) 

But there were first century Greco-Roman writers as well who also wrote histories.  Marcus Velleius Paterculus, King Juba of Mauretania, Marcus Servilius Nonianus, Pamphila of Epidaurus, Aufidius Bassus, Pliny the Elder, Cluvius Rufus, Julia Agrippina's memoirs ( used as a source by Tacitus)
Petronius Arbiter, Fabius Rusticus, Vespasian and Titus published commentaries on their careers, Seneca the Elder wrote a history up to 40 AD and Pompeius Saturninus at the beginning of the 2d century.  NOT A FUCKING WORD FROM ANY OF THEM ABOUT ANY XTIAN BULLSHIT.

Since it was church writers who ultimately determined what would or would not be copied and thus saved it is utterly unthinkable that they would have failed to record even negative comments by Greco-Roman writers even if only to cast aspersions on them as Augustine ineptly tried to do.

So where are the jesusists in the first century.  Perhaps someone should send out an APB?
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#49
RE: The First Century Void
(June 24, 2017 at 3:48 pm)Minimalist Wrote: A scholar named Alice Wheatley demonstrated back in 2008 that both the later Greek and Syriac variants of the TF derived from Eusebius, not Josephus.  Give it up, already.  It's a fraud.  And it is a fraud for the same reason that recent jesus freaks tried to pump life back into it in the 19th and early 20th centuries.  They are embarrassed by the utter void in the historical record of their alleged godboy.  And so they should be embarrassed.

Ok.... what is this demonstration?   A number of other scholars would disagree, what evidence and reasons do you point to, to take this position.

Quote:Since you have nothing to add except the tired old TF horseshit, I will move on. 

On page 293 Carrier writes:






I do have a problem with Carrier because he chooses not to deal with the obvious answer to his own question, that jesusism was a creation of the 2d century not the first but right now I'll play his game.  He goes on to list a bunch of writers who wrote of first century issues in Judaea:

Nicolaus of Damascus, Justus of Tiberias, Philo of Alexandria and Josephus ( who, when you eliminate the xtian forgeries never had anything to say about fucking jesus, either, just like the others.) 

But there were first century Greco-Roman writers as well who also wrote histories.  Marcus Velleius Paterculus, King Juba of Mauretania, Marcus Servilius Nonianus, Pamphila of Epidaurus, Aufidius Bassus, Pliny the Elder, Cluvius Rufus, Julia Agrippina's memoirs ( used as a source by Tacitus)
Petronius Arbiter, Fabius Rusticus, Vespasian and Titus published commentaries on their careers, Seneca the Elder wrote a history up to 40 AD and Pompeius Saturninus at the beginning of the 2d century.  NOT A FUCKING WORD FROM ANY OF THEM ABOUT ANY XTIAN BULLSHIT.

Since it was church writers who ultimately determined what would or would not be copied and thus saved it is utterly unthinkable that they would have failed to record even negative comments by Greco-Roman writers even if only to cast aspersions on them as Augustine ineptly tried to do.

So where are the jesusists in the first century.  Perhaps someone should send out an APB?

Again, the argument from silence is difficult to establish; and why some just outright call it a fallacy.   So where in this list do you propose that evidence should be, and is not.  I was looking at Pliny the Elders "Natural History" the other day (as I occasionally) see him on such lists.  I was laughing out loud as I looked through it's contents, and thinking that people include this as something that should mention Jesus.  But again I ask, what reasons or evidence lead you to this view?  Not to mention that a lot of the reasons for citing forgery (or interpolation) are pretty flimsy as well as begging the question.  I don't believe that you ever did answer, why is it 18 centuries of silence, until we hear of the mythacist position?
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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#50
RE: The First Century Void
(June 23, 2017 at 8:15 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: The work I'm referring to is from the 10th century, although they believe that the Greek and Arabic versions diverges a while before that.

However the question still remains, what facts or reasons, do you think that this version is an interpolation?

10th century or 12th, it's still at least the better part of nine hundred years after the fact. Plenty of room for a little 'creative accounting'; especially when you throw people with access to original documents and an agenda into the mix.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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