Is atheism self-contradictory ?

[brewer]

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What proofs are you referring to? Would you like to discuss one or two specifically?

I'm referring to all of them. All variants of the cosmological argument, arguments from morality, fine-tuning of the universe, etc. Do you seriously think that all people who simply reject belief studied all of this and came to the conclusion that all of them are absurd ? 

As a Muslim, I also consider that some aspects of the Qur'an are strong arguments, one of them is the fact that it is inimitable ( no human mind can make a similar literary achievement ). The Qur'an repeatedly challenges everyone who reads it to come up with his own impressive Arabic book talking about the universe and human life with comparable eloquence. 

My position is that you can't philosophize, argue, or debate a god(s) into existence. That only supports a belief. 

Well, this means that you simply reject the assumptions upon which any argument of god's existence is made. Take the cosmological argument for example, since it is unsound according to you, you boldly reject the causality principle. When I think about every assumption that needs to be taken down/reconsidered to rationalize atheism, there's just too many of them. 

Whose thinking should I trust if not my own? 

You didn't answer my question, why should you trust your OWN thinking if your brain is simply the product of random changes of your genome during the process of evolution ?

Trusting my brain's judgment about complex philosophical problems -such as God's existence- without any reason is the same as allowing a monkey to perform a cardiac surgery in my chest, and then expect to survive ...

Welcome to the forum. Tell us more about yourself when you get a chance.

I will. Thank you for responding quickly   

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We've (the forum, note it is more than just I) discussed all of those arguments that you site and I have found them lacking. You might try a search here in the forum for past threads that address them. And yes, if not absurd, I find them flawed. However, if you'd like to discuss them yet again and add your own perspective feel free. You might want to start individual threads for each. 

If god exists it would not need assumptions of logic, debate or argument. This simply indicates that god(s) was made by man for mans own purposes. 

I'll trust my brain because it's just that, my brain. I'm sorry that you think you have an untrustworthy monkey brain. I'm sure that your brain didn't come up with the arguments that you site but your brain has made the determination to accept or discard them.  Plus you indicate that "The Qur'an repeatedly challenges everyone who reads it to come up with his own impressive Arabic book". How are you able to do that if you can't trust your own brain? Are you suggesting that I trust a god(s) brain? That a god actually wrote your book?

[Parsim0ny]

An axiom is a statement that is taken to be true, to serve as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments. It isn't taken as a FACT. I trust my thinking (for the most part) because I can base it on the physical reality I see/feel/hear around me. Yes, those transducers can give me false information. How have you lived to your current age, with your "untrustworthy" brain?

Actually, you should trust the physical reality only if it is consistent and logical, not the other way around. When you see a mirage before you, you immediately reject its appearance based on your inner knowledge that it is a natural optical phenomenon.

Well, shit, Min ninja'd me. If I'd read down to this point before posting, I wouldn't have posted. OP, Islam is no more true than an Invisible Pink Unicorn, or Scientology (which is demonstrably false, as people have seen the formation of that "religion" in real time. Ascribing to a religion that has its roots in antiquity doesn't make it any more true. If you live in the US, did you vote for Donald Trump? If not, why not? This is an actual homework assignment.

Nobody asked for your baseless thoughts about Islam ...

Thank you for replying.

[Jesster]

[brewer]

[edit]

Nobody asked for your baseless thoughts about Islam ...

[edit]

Nobody asked for your baseless thoughts regarding atheism.

[Parsim0ny]

Surely an agnostic's claims are that they don't know if any proof has ever been given correctly about god.

I'm not asking you to trust my thinking, but my thinking is that I can't speak Arabic, I have no interest in learning Arabic and the quran translated to English doesn't sound special to me.

The problem that you're talking about is actually a problem that faces Muslim claims rather than agnostic claims.

Your claim is that you know the quran is perfect, that you know Muhammad was perfect and all the other prophets, yet you couldn't possibly know what is perfect unless you have perfect judgement which you don't.

The problem I'm talking about concerns agnostics as well, everybody seems to agree with me that we NEED to trust our brains and trust their ability to attain truth. What's the source of this trust ? Is it mere belief or hope ? What's your position on this ?

I firmly believe that without assuming that some absolute power created our mind, nothing can be said or done, nothing can be proved or refuted. Therefore the fact that I can demonstrate logical statements and discern between sound and unsound arguments is proof of this power's existence. Where am I mistaken ?

[Jesster]

I smell a sock. A dirty, dirty sock.

I'm starting to detect a certain socky aroma as well.

[Parsim0ny]

Nobody asked for your baseless thoughts regarding atheism.

You're right, nobody asked me to post this. But since you came to my post you're compelled to reply with something related. What does the thread have to do with Islam for God's sake ? And yes, his thoughts about this religion specifically are at best unfounded.

Besides, you still didn't answer any of my questions.

[paulpablo]

Surely an agnostic's claims are that they don't know if any proof has ever been given correctly about god.

I'm not asking you to trust my thinking, but my thinking is that I can't speak Arabic, I have no interest in learning Arabic and the quran translated to English doesn't sound special to me.

The problem that you're talking about is actually a problem that faces Muslim claims rather than agnostic claims.

Your claim is that you know the quran is perfect, that you know Muhammad was perfect and all the other prophets, yet you couldn't possibly know what is perfect unless you have perfect judgement which you don't.

The problem I'm talking about concerns agnostics as well, everybody seems to agree with me that we NEED to trust our brains and trust their ability to attain truth. What's the source of this trust ? Is it mere belief or hope ? What's your position on this ?

I firmly believe that without assuming that some absolute power created our mind, nothing can be said or done, nothing can be proved or refuted. Therefore the fact that I can demonstrate logical statements and discern between sound and unsound arguments is proof of this power's existence. Were am I mistaken ?

I can prove you wrong.  I don't assume there is an absolute power that created my mind yet in typing this message I am showing my capability to do something.

[Parsim0ny]

The problem I'm talking about concerns agnostics as well, everybody seems to agree with me that we NEED to trust our brains and trust their ability to attain truth. What's the source of this trust ? Is it mere belief or hope ? What's your position on this ?

I firmly believe that without assuming that some absolute power created our mind, nothing can be said or done, nothing can be proved or refuted. Therefore the fact that I can demonstrate logical statements and discern between sound and unsound arguments is proof of this power's existence. Were am I mistaken ?

I can prove you wrong.  I don't assume there is an absolute power that created my mind yet in typing this message I am showing my capability to do something.

You're showing your capability of doing something only in the eyes of creatures with similar minds and intelligence. Nothing proves that you can attain an objective truth about anything, it's a basic assumption that you have to accept blindly, or rationalize by the existence of a superior power.

[paulpablo]

I can prove you wrong.  I don't assume there is an absolute power that created my mind yet in typing this message I am showing my capability to do something.

You're showing your capability of doing something only in the eyes of creatures with similar minds and intelligence. Nothing proves that you can attain an objective truth about anything, it's a basic assumption that you have to accept blindly, or rationalize by the existence of a superior power.

You can only rationalize by the existence of a superior power in the eyes of creatures with similar minds and intelligence.  Which puts you in the exact same position except you're adding an unneccesary unproven god into the mix.

This brings me back to what I was saying before.

An agnostic says they don't know.

You say you do know that the quran is perfect, muhammad is perfect and all the prophets are perfect yet you're judging them using your own imperfect, bias, indoctrinated mind.

This isn't to pick on you for being indoctrinated, bias or imperfect.  I believe all humans are bias, imperfect and indoctrinated in some way.