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My cousin and I are discussing the issue of whether Christianity values works or simply faith. I've been able to come up with good replies to most of his points, though many are complicated by the fact that we have different denominational upbringings. However, he made the following point, and I'd like some feedback on it. Even if it's just to say it's a good point. Since the original issue was about who goes to hell and why, it's not even entirely relevant, but I do need to answer him on it. Some help please?
"Christianity does not embrace words over deeds. To say so is blatantly ridiculous. To say so is frankly slander (or... maybe libel. I get them mixed up). When Jim Baker's horrible behavior was exposed did you hear any Christians saying, "Oh, it's okay. He said a lot of nice things before he did all that. I'll still believe the things he says." When a priest is found to be a pedophile, does anyone try to defend him by saying, "It's alright that he raped those kids, he said he's a Christian so he must be."
If what you meant was that all it takes to get into heaven is saying you're sorry and really meaning it, then well, you are right. That is all it takes to get those negative points off your record. Yes, in other words, it is free. A mass murderer can get it for the exact same price as a soup kitchen worker. What would be the point of a salvation if it was only for nice people?"
To see the rest of the discussion, see here. Thanks for any help!
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Henry Roberts
It is quite sacrilegious of modern day Christians to ignore the part of redemption in repentance. Just saying sorry doesn't help - one must earn redemption. That involves changing oneself and making up for the wrongs, knowing that even though it is impossible to ever change the past, one can help form the future.
Modern day Christians seem to favor "God will judge" over their own ideals of spiritual enlightenment.
Yeah, the Catholics tendency to cover up their scandals was the first thing that came to mind.
I did go back though, and concede to him that my original point was about genuine belief, not just empty words, so it was a poor phrase to use on my part.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Henry Roberts
(October 10, 2010 at 6:54 pm)Synackaon Wrote: It is quite sacrilegious of modern day Christians to ignore the part of redemption in repentance. Just saying sorry doesn't help - one must earn redemption. That involves changing oneself and making up for the wrongs, knowing that even though it is impossible to ever change the past, one can help form the future.
Modern day Christians seem to favor "God will judge" over their own ideals of spiritual enlightenment.
How typical.
Since we can only use the Bible to ascertain how one receives salvation please show me with scriptures how one is to earn salvation. Redemption = Salvation
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
My cousin and I are discussing the issue of whether Christianity values works or simply faith. I've been able to come up with good replies to most of his points, though many are complicated by the fact that we have different denominational upbringings. However, he made the following point, and I'd like some feedback on it. Even if it's just to say it's a good point. Since the original issue was about who goes to hell and why, it's not even entirely relevant, but I do need to answer him on it. Some help please?
"Christianity does not embrace words over deeds. To say so is blatantly ridiculous. To say so is frankly slander (or... maybe libel. I get them mixed up). When Jim Baker's horrible behavior was exposed did you hear any Christians saying, "Oh, it's okay. He said a lot of nice things before he did all that. I'll still believe the things he says." When a priest is found to be a pedophile, does anyone try to defend him by saying, "It's alright that he raped those kids, he said he's a Christian so he must be."
If what you meant was that all it takes to get into heaven is saying you're sorry and really meaning it, then well, you are right. That is all it takes to get those negative points off your record. Yes, in other words, it is free. A mass murderer can get it for the exact same price as a soup kitchen worker. What would be the point of a salvation if it was only for nice people?"
To see the rest of the discussion, see here. Thanks for any help!
I went to your site and read some of it, it's getting late so I'll finish reading it later. What I read was not suprising to me it's a topic of great debate amoung christian denominations and even within some christian denominations so why should this be different between atheist and christians. I would like to give you my views on this subject, not to get you to change your mind about christianity, because there is far more to christianity than your eternal destination even though I believe that is the greatest thing to consider.
It seems to me that your greatest objection is to the fairness of God's judgement. Let's start with torture, hell is not a place of torture it is a place of punishment and there are different levels of punishment for different sins and the amount of sin, so that in itself shows a fairness in punishment.
I'm not sure why you think that hell is a place of torture, if it were there would have to be one who tortures and that is not what God is. Many say why can't God just forgive sin and let it go at that, where is the justice in that, others do as God has asked by believeing in Christ as Lord and Savior and repenting of their sin (that is to turn away from it), how is an omniscient God suppose to forget what has been commited against Him, He can not unless He has provided a way for that to happen and the only way that this was possible was for His Son to voluntarily give His life through suffering for us. When we accept Christ's sacrifice for us those sins are covered so that the Father can no longer see them, that is why Christ said the only way to the Father is through Me. He was not being arrogant He was telling it like it is. Yes He was saying there is only one way into heaven for mankind and that way cost God a great price, with the price paid mankind was given a chance to be saved at no cost to himself. By grace and grace alone are we saved. Yes works do show our commitment to Christ and so they should since He paid our price to stay out of hell. However the works that some talk about and what God expects of us can be two different things but that's another subject for another day. Also you mentioned once saved always saved, well I'm Southern Baptist and no denomination is stronger on this point that us, however I see this different than most my fellow Baptist. Yes I do believe that once you're saved God will not take it from you when you mess up from time to time, I do believe that you can reject the gift that was freely given you in different ways, you can outright deny what you once believed or you can turn your back upon what you believed and go your own way leaving Christ out of your life. This is part of the freewill God has given mankind we choose our eternal destination He does not choose it for us. I know what scripture says about a firey hell and I know that this place is where the lost will spend eternity and rightfully so for all sin must be judged if God is to be fair to all people. What I do believe though is that hell is not a place of fire and brimstone for that to me would be torture, God does not torture people, look at it this way how can you explain physical pain to someone who can not sense pain at all, that would not be an easy task and I personally do not know how it can be done. So God is left with the same thing with us and I don't mean pain, He is telling us what it would be like to be completely removed from His love, what a great sorrow it would be, He was left with only something all people can and have experienced the pain of heat. No one has ever experienced not having God's love so we can not understand what that would be like, He did want us to fear not having His love so this is why we have the story of a firey hell. Well it's really late now so I'll end here.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Rosie - i think the main problem with Christianity as you are discussing it is that Jesus will forgive believers as long as they accept him. Look at people on death row becoming born again Christians. If they were not facing death I wonder how many of them would convert? They are making Pascal's wager and i'm sure many of them are even sincere in their beliefs. Frankly speaking I find this amazingly wrong.
@Godschild
Hell is a tricky concept. Especially as the original meaning of the word meant to be buried (Sheol - IIRC). Hell has also been described as separation from God (cool... wouldn't want to be around that tyrannical megalomaniac dictator), a firey pit, a frozen wasteland...
Its been presented in so many ways that even the Devils probably don't know what they should be doing and who to and what for!
A finite number of monkeys with a finite number of typewriters and a finite amount of time could eventually reproduce 4chan.
