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Cash for vasectomy....
#21
RE: Cash for vasectomy....
(October 18, 2010 at 1:04 pm)Tiberius Wrote: You are taking it way too far by insinuating that they plan to extend the offer to the "useless, criminals, morally corrupt, and people with no common sense". I have seen nothing in these reports that suggest they are going to do that at all. There are no direct mental / physical problems caused to babies during pregnancy if the parents are useless, criminal, morally corrupt, or lack common sense. There are direct mental / physical problems cause to babies during pregnancy if the parents are drug addicts.

Ok. But that is not to say that I cannot do this in the future myself!

It also has to do with children after they are born. Children of drug dependent Parents will often show the signs of drug addiction themselves, and they will be more likely to themselves become addicts later in life.

Children of ciminal type Parents will also tend towards criminal type behaviour themselves. They are often un-educated, intolerante & very aggressive.

The other examples are a slight exaggeration. They could be refined. I will say, however controversial, people with low IQ's, the mentally disabled, & people with psychlogical problems should be included. And if you are wondering if I would be a part of this method, then the answer is Yes.

I would undertake testing to determine if I would be a suitable parent. The chances are, I would fail.

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#22
RE: Cash for vasectomy....
(October 18, 2010 at 6:03 pm)Existentialist Wrote: I think a bribe is...

What you think a bribe is and what a bribe actually is are two different things. What you are describing is not a bribe.
Eeyore Wrote:Thanks for noticing.
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#23
RE: Cash for vasectomy....
(October 19, 2010 at 12:42 pm)chasm Wrote:
(October 18, 2010 at 6:03 pm)Existentialist Wrote: I think a bribe is...

What you think a bribe is and what a bribe actually is are two different things. What you are describing is not a bribe.

Shhh! That would make sense. We can't have meaningful dialogue and redefinitions of common words at the same time! Big Grin
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#24
RE: Cash for vasectomy....
(October 19, 2010 at 1:21 pm)Synackaon Wrote:
(October 19, 2010 at 12:42 pm)chasm Wrote: What you think a bribe is and what a bribe actually is are two different things. What you are describing is not a bribe.
Shhh! That would make sense. We can't have meaningful dialogue and redefinitions of common words at the same time!
You guys probably need to direct your comments to those on this thread who want to prevent freedom of expression by restricting the definition of a bribe to any "illegal" incentive, in defiance of all the usual dictionaries. The same people ironically seem to be happy accusing me of redefining words. It's a funny old world, isn't it? In the meantime some others here might want to spend a bit of time writing to the following publications to get them to rein in their usage of the word bribe, if they really think they have a point, which they don't.

Bribes for Lives - Sterilising Drug Addicts (The Independent)
American NGO bribes British drug addict for voluntary vasectomy (Seer Press News)
£200 bribe for drug addict to be sterilised branded immoral (The Daily Mirror)
Bribe: Barbara Harris is filmed handing over the cash to drug addict 'John' after he had the vasectomy operation (Illustration, The Daily Mail)
Bribing Women to be Sterilised (Women's Health News, 2005)

As in all other cases where this vacuous crap alleging that I have used incorrect definitions has been produced, the objections are deeply motivated by the objector's politics, not any sincere concern for the preservation of the English language or clarity of communication. As many others have clearly already concluded, these payments are what I've said they are: a bribe.
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#25
RE: Cash for vasectomy....
(October 18, 2010 at 8:32 pm)Existentialist Wrote: Your esoteric meanderings into the law of non-contradiction do not really have a great deal of relevance in this conversation, because I think you will find that the broadest dictionary definition of the word bribe allows for it to be merely a thing designed to lure.

It seems you're right, I recall my objection Tongue

.
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#26
RE: Cash for vasectomy....
You are really over-engineering this whole discussion, Ex.

When an "incentive" crosses a certain threshold it becomes a bribe. People go to jail for offering and taking bribes.

They do not go to jail for getting $1,000 back when they buy a car....although the car may be a piece of shit. Caveat emptor, you know.
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#27
RE: Cash for vasectomy....
(October 19, 2010 at 2:58 pm)Existentialist Wrote: You guys probably need to direct your comments to those on this thread who want to prevent freedom of expression by restricting the definition of a bribe to any "illegal" incentive, in defiance of all the usual dictionaries. The same people ironically seem to be happy accusing me of redefining words. It's a funny old world, isn't it? In the meantime some others here might want to spend a bit of time writing to the following publications to get them to rein in their usage of the word bribe, if they really think they have a point, which they don't.

Really? I saw definitions of bribery coming from a variety of sources, from "Do What I Tell You" dictionaries to the cultural definitions exemplified in wide spread media, which is a measure of how the culture defines the language.

Maybe you "forgot" this part:
(October 18, 2010 at 5:58 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: Definitions of bribe on the Web:

•make illegal payments to in exchange for favors or influence; "This judge can be bought"
•payment made to a person in a position of trust to corrupt his judgment
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

•Bribery, a form of pecuniary corruption, is an act implying money or gift given that alters the behavior of the recipient. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribe

•The Bribe (1949) is a American crime film noir directed by Robert Z. Leonard and written by Marguerite Roberts, based on a story written by Frederick Nebel. The drama features Robert Taylor, Ava Gardner, Charles Laughton, and others.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bribe

•The Bribe: variations and extensions on Spillane is an album by American composer and saxophonist/multi-instrumentalist John Zorn, consisting of music created for three half-hour radio plays produced by Mabou Mines theater company in 1986. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bribe_(album)

•Something (usually money) given in exchange for influence or as an inducement to dishonesty; To give a bribe to
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bribe

•bribery - the practice of offering something (usually money) in order to gain an illicit advantage
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

•bribery - the making of illegal payment, or bribes, to persons in official positions as a means of influencing their decisions
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bribery

•offering something such as money or a favour to influence a decision or action of dishonesty.
http://www.sacc.to/glossary/glossary.htm

•A payment made to person, often a government official such as a customs officer, to induce favorable treatment.
www-personal.umich.edu/~alandear/glossary/b.html

•f. far away
http://www.bangkokpost.com/education/lat...fb1599.htm

•The act of paying a secret commission to another individual. It is also used to describe the secret commission itself.
education.qld.gov.au/strategic/eppr/legal/lgspr007/definitions.html

•a payment made to somebody as a bribe ( informal )
encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861724352/payoff.html

•bribery - Involving a company from an industrialized country offering an illicit payment to a developing country's public official with perceived or real influence over contract awards. Bribery may range from gifts to large amounts of money.
wps.pearsoned.co.uk/ema_uk_he_hollensen_globalmark_4/64/16425/4205002.cw/content/index.html




(October 19, 2010 at 2:58 pm)Existentialist Wrote: As in all other cases where this vacuous crap alleging that I have used incorrect definitions has been produced, the objections are deeply motivated by the objector's politics, not any sincere concern for the preservation of the English language or clarity of communication. As many others have clearly already concluded, these payments are what I've said they are: a bribe.

Because other people object to your thrashing and redefining of a common word to mean what /you/ wanted in a specific circumstance, it's all their fault?

If 99% of your audience isn't getting what you said, it's not their fault.

It's yours.
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#28
RE: Cash for vasectomy....
I'm sorry dudes, but Existentialist is right this time, Bribery is an action that is not necessarily illegal. While it may be commonly used with that intention it is by no means the only use of the word.

I would still suggest we call it an "unethical incentive" so we can bypass all of this crap anyway.
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#29
RE: Cash for vasectomy....
There's a good article at the BBC website about this. Apparently no less a figure than Project Prevention founder Barbara Harris 'admitted her methods amounted to "bribery", but said it was the only way to stop babies being physically and mentally damaged by drugs during pregnancy.'

Nevertheless I would always defend the freedom of anyone to express disagreement with me over the definition of the word bribe. Dictionaries provide information. They are not legislation.

More importantly, I am shocked at the BMA's reaction to this news story. To say that they 'do not take a view' on the charity Project Prevention is irresponsible. I am surprised they do not take a firmer view, it'll be their members who will be sued for carrying out these procedures on people unethically in the years to come.
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#30
RE: Cash for vasectomy....
(October 19, 2010 at 5:56 pm)Existentialist Wrote: Nevertheless I would always defend the freedom of anyone to express disagreement with me over the definition of the word bribe. Dictionaries provide information. They are not legislation.

This I would strongly disagree with, you were correct in your use of 'bribe' as not necessarily illegal, but this does not mean that the definition it's self is not something that should be adhered to. Failing to use words as defined hinders communication.

Quote:More importantly, I am shocked at the BMA's reaction to this news story. To say that they 'do not take a view' on the charity Project Prevention is irresponsible. I am surprised they do not take a firmer view, it'll be their members who will be sued for carrying out these procedures on people unethically in the years to come.

If they volunteer for the procedure then there is no unethical conduct, you may be personally uncomfortable with it, but if all of the relevant parties are in agreement then it cannot possibly be unethical, it would only be the case if the men getting vasectomies are not aware of the procedure taking place or are mislead about the consequences. I could pay a physician to remove my testicles

Not only that but the money saved from years of child welfare, schooling and medical costs, as well as the increased chances of the children of drug addicts clogging up the justice system gives reason for pause.
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