Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.

[Brian37]

All I hear is about the same as my dogs or Charlie Brown.

The argument of every religious apologist of every religion worldwide.

[WinterHold]

All I see is somebody going around and around in circles, to complicate what wasn't made to be complicated.
To prove a point that isn't there; maybe?

The original verse along with its contextual preceding and proceeding verses:

Sura 42, The Quran

( 17 )   It is Allah who has sent down the Book in truth and [also] the balance. And what will make you perceive? Perhaps the Hour is near.
( 18 )   Those who do not believe in it are impatient for it, but those who believe are fearful of it and know that it is the truth. Unquestionably, those who dispute concerning the Hour are in extreme error.
( 19 )   Allah is Subtle with His servants; He gives provisions to whom He wills. And He is the Powerful, the Exalted in Might.
( 20 )   Whoever desires the harvest of the Hereafter - We increase for him in his harvest. And whoever desires the harvest of this world - We give him thereof, but there is not for him in the Hereafter any share.
( 21 )   Or have they other deities who have ordained for them a religion to which Allah has not consented? But if not for the decisive word, it would have been concluded between them. And indeed, the wrongdoers will have a painful punishment.
( 22 )   You will see the wrongdoers fearful of what they have earned, and it will [certainly] befall them. And those who have believed and done righteous deeds will be in lush regions of the gardens [in Paradise] having whatever they will in the presence of their Lord. That is what is the great bounty.

( 23 )   It is that of which Allah gives good tidings to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say, "I do not ask you for this message any payment [but] only good will through kinship." And whoever commits a good deed - We will increase for him good therein. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Appreciative.


( 24 )   Or do they say, "He has invented about Allah a lie"? But if Allah willed, He could seal over your heart. And Allah eliminates falsehood and establishes the truth by His words. Indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts.
( 25 )   And it is He who accepts repentance from his servants and pardons misdeeds, and He knows what you do.
( 26 )   And He answers [the supplication of] those who have believed and done righteous deeds and increases [for] them from His bounty. But the disbelievers will have a severe punishment.

What in hell does this has to do with your OP?

If you have something to say, then say it! don't waste my time, please.
Textual mazes are not my thing.

Why do you come to something so obvious, so straight, so explicit, and complicate it until people hate it and make fun of your disgusting logic?
I don't know you in real life, but that is one nasty trait.

Be honest: be obvious.
And please copy-paste authentic real sections of the book you speak about.

[DodosAreDead]

I would rather watch a snail cross the Sahara than try and interpret a friggin book that was written by someone hoping to (and succeeding to) control people.

[Brian37]

I would rather watch a snail cross the Sahara than try and interpret a friggin book that was written by someone hoping to (and succeeding to) control people.

Oh my Thor, you just may have inspired a new poem. LOVE THE analogy. SOOOOOO true.....

I really wish theists would remember what we really hate isn't their rights, but bad arguments based on old mythology in defense of old mythology.

I agree. Been at this online since 01 And yea, "paint drying" is the common one, but I like this better, it is far more epic.

[Brian37]

   Crossing The Sahara , Brian37 (AKA Brian James Rational Poet on FB and @brianrrs37 on twitter) Inspired by Dodosaredead.
 
The apologist's dissertation
They tout as truely amazing
But it really is nothing more
Than mental masturbation
 
Tedious it becomes
Wading through that wall
Giant wall of text
Like a snail crossing the Sahara
 
Void of any substence 
Hardly explains anything
Airid mirrage logic
Fantasy still convinces them
 
They sell a butterfly
In reality it is a slug
Pour the salt of harsh logic
And soon it is all gone
 
Despite it's stubborness
Always slow to change
Our species still advances
When we question everything
 
Like a snail crossing the Sahara
It is worth the effort
To challenge mythology
To escape the the empty desert 
 
We've escaped belief in sun gods
In favor of solar pannels
And we wouldn't be modern
If we didn't challenge all others
 
I still value the good
The empathy in my species
But religion is slow to change
And clings to absurdity 
 
The Sahara is War And Peace
The tribes of antiquity
All want a piece
Justified by mythology
 
And I am crossing it
Watching everyone present
Their hollow disertations 
Mere mental masturbation
 
Heat beats down on me
Not because I'm wrong
But I've called out superstitions
Whom wont last that long
 
They think I'm one to sweat
To die a lonely death
To suffer eternal torture
I challenge all of it
 
The street corner huslter
Selling the fake Rolex
The fake Gucchi bag
Out of the trunk of his rusted Honda Civic
 
10,000 years we've had
Since our first written words
It seems pretty selfish
Petty, cruel and absurd
 
If there really were
Someone helping us
You think it could do better
Than to leave you in the desert
 
Airid of any logic
Heatted left with fighting
10,000 years of murder
He won't step in to solve it
 
Tedious it becomes
All the different dissertations
All the flavors of apologists
Know they really have nothing
 
Like a snail crossing the Sahara
I can find my Oasis
In the arid land of theology
I reside in the bounty of science.
(end)

Posted today, post #969 also at my home poetry thread here. http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/31771?page=19
 

[Minimalist]

Oddly, Brian, that makes more sense than the shit the MK posts.

[Mystic]

I already showed other wage verses, and how they relate to 42:23.

Aside from looking at the context of those verses, is the issue of chosen family in Quran. Among the verses is 3:33.

The concept of chosen family is emphasized through out Quran.    Aside from that is the issue of love.

The Quran doesn't say people don't worship God or love his nearness. It's just that they worship Satan and their dark illusionary selves and others a long with God and equate in value others with God. Aside from that, is how monotheistic communities worship their leaders while deceiving themselves they are devoted to God in worship alone.

The Quran talks about how Adam was a means to knowledge for the Angels, knowledge of the names.  The chosen ones were similarly a way to recognize God, and the discussion revolving around the name of God shows God appoints a means to him.

The Quran in 25:57 is saying the wage is for who wants to, to take a path to their Lord.  The wage therefore is not the love of closeness (to God) as some people assert as the one being asked is the one who already wants to take a path to God, and he asks the wage therefore for those who already love nearness to God and believe in the message, and disbelievers are only required to pay the wage once they accept the Messenger out of gratitude and recognition of the great gift the near kin are.

The word Al-Qurba given how much Quran has emphasized on the concept of chosen family and chosen offspring, is surely about that. And it surely saying that the family of the reminder, those designated as God's beautiful names and are all instances of his great name, God is designating them as the means of being grateful for the message and showing appreciating the message, and that attaching them is so who wants to take a path to himself.

Another verse is "whatever wage I have asked it is for yourselves", there is no need of clarifying that the wage is for ourselves if it meant love of our own kin or closeness to God, but as it's the near kin of Mohammad, some people might think he is favoring his kin over others.

But it's saying in fact it's a reminder and for who wants to, to take a path to their Lord, that it is in fact for our own selves, and for our benefit.

We will see the context of the 42:23 within the Surah later as well as the other wage verses.  But before that, I will go into a discussion regarding Jesus and the word of truth that people differ and dispute regarding.

In the word of light that God has brought to life lies the gnosis of Quran and what goodness and morality is.

Among the things 42:23 is saying in the line "whoever does good we will increase them therein" is that love of the means to God and connection to God and the name of God and the channels of light of God by which God connects the believers to himself, is the heart and essence of what goodness is.

And if we think about love, it's away misdirected and people instead of recognizing God for who he is, make him according to their dark idol and desires. This is saying love those who manifest God, those who are instances of his name and holy spirit, all intending by that love to appreciate the message and take a path to God.

---

Why does a "holy" book need interpretation?

Why does it always seem that they're deluberatelt vague?

Why can't an all knowing god be clear in it's messages?

1. Because it has infinite knowledge while our interpretation will be limited, thus there is an explanation within it of it's explanation and explanation of that explanation and an explanation of that explanation and so on and so forth.  The ones who have clean purified hearts that we know have so, are those who God manifests their purity and attributes purity to, and is not who we claim are enlightened. Rather it is up to God to chose the means to him.

2. Because of the darkness of our hearts and stupidity, the clearest signs and teachings appear unclear, that and the dark sorcery that we don't guard against makes most of the book vague.

3.  God is the best speaker but it turns out humans are one of the worse listeners to wisdom, they were a created from sperm and small egg and than become an open enemy to God and his chosen ones, as if they know everything in so little time.

[Brian37]

Oddly, Brian, that makes more sense than the shit the MK posts.

Yea because my art a challenge to old mythology, not an endorsement of old mythology.

I think it takes billions of times more imagination to think than to blindly cling to the past. I see things like CERN that smashes atoms, and the Hubble Space telescope far more imaginative and productive and positive than the rantings of all of antiquity WORLDWIDE.

But having said that, MK nor CL for that matter are evil to me. Unfortunately most humans get sold the social norms of their parents long before they can formulate adult critical thinking skills.

[Mystic]

Oddly, Brian, that makes more sense than the shit the MK posts.

Yea because my art a challenge to old mythology, not an endorsement of old mythology.

The thing is sometimes we need a snap shot of time before we corrupt all meanings of ancient words and throw them out of the context of their origin and what they meant to humans back than. I feel Quran as a seal of revelations from God,  and a means of uniting humans on one revelation that designates their proper authorities and leaders in religion and journey to the Sacred Creator of all things, not only is a guidance but a means of holding on to language and terms that humans and Jinn are doing their best to cause humanity to forget.

What is goodness but love of those designated to channel the light of the source to us, and loving the light of God and his light in creation thereby as it's meant to be loved, not making it in our own desires but recognizing it for what it is.

What is goodness but knowing who God is and who we truly are through the witnesses appointed to manifest the vision of God towards ourselves and a vision towards himself.

May God make us submit to guidance from him which is the only true guidance and turn away from dark avenues and conjectures and desires leading away from the source of all greatness and goodness.

[Brian37]

I already showed other wage verses, and how they relate to 42:23.

Aside from looking at the context of those verses, is the issue of chosen family in Quran. Among the verses is 3:33.

The concept of chosen family is emphasized through out Quran.    Aside from that is the issue of love.

The Quran doesn't say people don't worship God or love his nearness. It's just that they worship Satan and their dark illusionary selves and others a long with God and equate in value others with God. Aside from that, is how monotheistic communities worship their leaders while deceiving themselves they are devoted to God in worship alone.

The Quran talks about how Adam was a means to knowledge for the Angels, knowledge of the names.  The chosen ones were similarly a way to recognize God, and the discussion revolving around the name of God shows God appoints a means to him.

The Quran in 25:57 is saying the wage is for who wants to, to take a path to their Lord.  The wage therefore is not the love of closeness (to God) as some people assert as the one being asked is the one who already wants to take a path to God, and he asks the wage therefore for those who already love nearness to God and believe in the message, and disbelievers are only required to pay the wage once they accept the Messenger out of gratitude and recognition of the great gift the near kin are.

The word Al-Qurba given how much Quran has emphasized on the concept of chosen family and chosen offspring, is surely about that. And it surely saying that the family of the reminder, those designated as God's beautiful names and are all instances of his great name, God is designating them as the means of being grateful for the message and showing appreciating the message, and that attaching them is so who wants to take a path to himself.

Another verse is "whatever wage I have asked it is for yourselves", there is no need of clarifying that the wage is for ourselves if it meant love of our own kin or closeness to God, but as it's the near kin of Mohammad, some people might think he is favoring his kin over others.

But it's saying in fact it's a reminder and for who wants to, to take a path to their Lord, that it is in fact for our own selves, and for our benefit.

We will see the context of the 42:23 within the Surah later as well as the other wage verses.  But before that, I will go into a discussion regarding Jesus and the word of truth that people differ and dispute regarding.

In the word of light that God has brought to life lies the gnosis of Quran and what goodness and morality is.

Among the things 42:23 is saying in the line "whoever does good we will increase them therein" is that love of the means to God and connection to God and the name of God and the channels of light of God by which God connects the believers to himself, is the heart and essence of what goodness is.

And if we think about love, it's away misdirected and people instead of recognizing God for who he is, make him according to their dark idol and desires. This is saying love those who manifest God, those who are instances of his name and holy spirit, all intending by that love to appreciate the message and take a path to God.

---

Why does a "holy" book need interpretation?

Why does it always seem that they're deluberatelt vague?

Why can't an all knowing god be clear in it's messages?

1. Because it has infinite knowledge while our interpretation will be limited, thus there is an explanation within it of it's explanation and explanation of that explanation and an explanation of that explanation and so on and so forth.  The ones who have clean purified hearts that we know have so, are those who God manifests their purity and attributes purity to, and is not who we claim are enlightened. Rather it is up to God to chose the means to him.

2. Because of the darkness of our hearts and stupidity, the clearest signs and teachings appear unclear, that and the dark sorcery that we don't guard against makes most of the book vague.

3.  God is the best speaker but it turns out humans are one of the worse listeners to wisdom, they were a created from sperm and small egg and than become an open enemy to God and his chosen ones, as if they know everything in so little time.

My logic has a first name, it's O-S-C-A-R, 
My logic has a second name it's M-A-Y-E-R
And if you ask me why I'll say
Cause Oscar Mayer has a way with
B-O-L-O-G-N-A

MK, so what? You are STILL stuck in the same boat as any Jew or Christian or Hindu or Buddhist.

Our species was around before any written religion. Our planet is 4 billion years old, our Milky Way galaxy is only 1 of an estimated 2 trillion galaxies in a 13.8 billion year old universe. I am NOT singling you out when I say, ALL RELIGIONS ARE HUMAN'S INVENTIONS. 

Our universe DOES NOT need a God by any name, and our universe was NOT put here for our species.