Human beings have virtually no value if they are just machines

[Brian37]

Why?

Also, biology doesn't do machinations.

I accept for arguments sake that biology is free of purposeful action.

Which puts biology about on the same level as a machine doesn't it?

---

"Apparent" is the key, and science has proven that our species perceptions of reality are notoriously flawed.

We don't doubt you truly believe your position, you are not the first theist we have ever debated. What we do doubt is your perception of reality.

Fair enough.

No, nature is not a machine, it is a process. It is stupid to treat nature as being the same as what humans build, like a car or factory. Evolution is very predictable yes, but don't confuse the observation as being a product.

Evolution is merely a science full of language that describes our observations. It is not a product itself. It is a language humans developed to describe our own scientific observations.

You cannot call evolution a "machine". If evolution were a "machine" then you could easily claim that lightening is a product of Thor. Lightening is certainly observable and explainable, in scientific terms, but it is also hardly a product made by a machine.

You can also explain conditions that lead to a hurricane, but you rightfully do not see hurricanes as the product of a Ocean God named Poseidon.

"Predictions" in scientific language isn't calling for machines or factory bosses. It is merely saying atoms, under certain conditions can lead to these outcomes.

[Cyberman]

Why?

Also, biology doesn't do machinations.

I accept for arguments sake that biology is free of purposeful action.

Which puts biology about on the same level as a machine doesn't it?

Biology doesn't think or feel or plan; it just does what it does, repeatably and predictably. In that sense it's akin to machinery.

Biological organisms, on the other hand, are far more than merely the sum of their parts. Life, and whatever purpose the individual derives from it, is an emergent property, not an externally assigned one. Even if you insist that it is such, the onus is on you at least to propose where it is imposed, at what point in the organism's gestation, and more importantly why; since there is no necessity.

[Ravenshire]

For those arguing that an eternal life will be eternally blissful, I don't think you understand just how long eternity is or some very basic elements of human nature. Let's tackle the human nature part first. We get bored with shit. Doesn't matter what it is, doesn't matter how much we love it, we get bored with it. A favorite food, favorite experience, favorite what the fuck ever. We get bored of it. One of the things that keeps us going is new experiences. Then there's eternity. That's for-fucking-ever. It's so much time you can't possibly imagine it, though you probably think you can. So, you've got people who get bored of everything and an eternity to spend. That leads to this.

Besides, I've met people who long for everlasting life who can't figure what to do with themselves over a long weekend.

[Whateverist]

Starhunter, I haven't been following this thread but just read the last few posts. Can you tell me which post you came in on? (I see that the original poster doesn't seem to be involved now and you seem to have something to say on the subject from the theist point of view.)

[Banned]

I never said or thought about a special reward for me, they're your words. 
If you conceive yourself as no better than a bag of fertilizer that's your right

Reward and justice are/were your words, (take a look back at your posts), along with it's "Source" (have to assume this is god, but lets see if you acknowledge or squirm).

And the fantasy conception is yours. Not originally, but it seems you sure bought into it.

Yes, I used those words, like "reward" etc, but not exclusively for me, not as you said - as if I am privileged above others, which is certainly not written in my post.

And yes, the term "Source" with a capital letter, refers to God.

[Brian37]

Reward and justice are/were your words, (take a look back at your posts), along with it's "Source" (have to assume this is god, but lets see if you acknowledge or squirm).

And the fantasy conception is yours. Not originally, but it seems you sure bought into it.

Yes, I used those words, like "reward" etc, but not exclusively for me, not as you said - as if I am privileged above others, which is certainly not written in my post.

And yes, the term "Source" with a capital letter, refers to God.

Problem is as with even Muslims and Jews is that this "source" is assumed not universal independently proven fact. 

Just like you don't blindly buy claims of Visnhu or Apollo.

My question to ALL humans of EVERY RELIGION, is why, does anyone feel the need to claim authority based on religion? 

I already answered it, but the REAL reason like I mentioned before, is that EVERY religion claims they are the "source" of our species morality.

I'd say that our source is our EVOLUTION.

It is same reason a dog will protect their owner. It is the same reason my cat will seek my comfort as well as I seeking his.

EVOLUTION not superstition, not old mythology, not religion. EVOLUTION is your source.

[Whateverist]

In what way does living forever make things meaningful when they otherwise wouldn't be?  People have limited attention spans.  If you haven't shared time with someone in 1,000 years or 1,000,000 years, of what special significance is that time spent.  At each moment, our pasts are finite.  This is the case whether you live an eternity, or merely 100 years.  How does an infinite life span add meaning in a way that is categorically different than what 100 years does?

Are you saying that there is nothing more special than the moment - which is the time we live in, we can't live in the past or future...

but if we no longer exist, then the alternative of living forever is really special isn't it?

What alternative?


(Found it.)

[Banned]

Biology doesn't think or feel or plan; it just does what it does, repeatably and predictably. In that sense it's akin to machinery.

Biological organisms, on the other hand, are far more than merely the sum of their parts. Life, and whatever purpose the individual derives from it, is an emergent property, not an externally assigned one. Even if you insist that it is such, the onus is on you at least to propose where it is imposed, at what point in the organism's gestation, and more importantly why; since there is no necessity.

These are really good questions.

We may conclude from science that there must be some point at which life, however it is caused, ceases. And it can be assumed that there is a point at which life is introduced.
But as you said, there is no need to look for such a set up. And neither do I look for such a thing, because it isn't necessary.

The power of Life from God, is the cause of every atom, every interaction, every relationship and law in the universe. Whether it is what we call animate or inanimate, there is no distinction. Yet all things created, whether called animate or inanimate, are made to be separate and independent from God, so that the universe can respond to the presence and actions of God.

So I'm wouldn't look for a ghost to enter the body or to leave it. The Bible doesn't support any such claims like the "immortal soul" and other things peddled in religion.

So animals are the sum of their parts, and all their parts are designed.

[Brian37]

Biology doesn't think or feel or plan; it just does what it does, repeatably and predictably. In that sense it's akin to machinery.

Biological organisms, on the other hand, are far more than merely the sum of their parts. Life, and whatever purpose the individual derives from it, is an emergent property, not an externally assigned one. Even if you insist that it is such, the onus is on you at least to propose where it is imposed, at what point in the organism's gestation, and more importantly why; since there is no necessity.

These are really good questions.

We may conclude from science that there must be some point at which life, however it is caused, ceases. And it can be assumed that there is a point at which life is introduced.
But as you said, there is no need to look for such a set up. And neither do I look for such a thing, because it isn't necessary.

The power of Life from God, is the cause of every atom, every interaction, every relationship and law in the universe. Whether it is what we call animate or inanimate, there is no distinction. Yet all things created, whether called animate or inanimate, are made to be separate and independent from God, so that the universe can respond to the presence and actions of God.

So I'm wouldn't look for a ghost to enter the body or to leave it. The Bible doesn't support any such claims like the "immortal soul" and other things peddled in religion.

So animals are the sum of their parts, and all their parts are designed.

NO we are not designed, we EVOLVED.

A giraffe has a NERVE that goes from one ear, all the way down the neck, back up to the other side to the other ear. 

WOW, that is incredible "design" and all this time stupid me was taught that the shortest distance between two points was a straight line.

So humans are "designed" to choke on food where as dolphins have a separate blowhole that does not interfere with their eating?

Tell me, are cockroaches "designed"? They are far better breeders and breed far faster and outnumber humans and have existed far longer.

[Banned]

For those arguing that an eternal life will be eternally blissful, I don't think you understand just how long eternity is or some very basic elements of human nature. Let's tackle the human nature part first. We get bored with shit. Doesn't matter what it is, doesn't matter how much we love it, we get bored with it. A favorite food, favorite experience, favorite what the fuck ever. We get bored of it. One of the things that keeps us going is new experiences. Then there's eternity. That's for-fucking-ever. It's so much time you can't possibly imagine it, though you probably think you can. So, you've got people who get bored of everything and an eternity to spend. That leads to this.

Besides, I've met people who long for everlasting life who can't figure what to do with themselves over a long weekend.

There are very few people, like yourself who have actually tried to grasp the consequences of eternal life, and I would have to agree with you 100%.

The way that life is now, it cannot endure eternal life. It would be torture after some time, and after some more time, it would kill you.

But, there's always a but, some of the details are missing, and when they are understood, it is so mind blowing that it cannot be expressed in words.

One thing is for certain, it takes tremendous change and power to be able to live in heaven. But if kids can handle it, become like a kid.
Jesus said unless you become as a child in attitude towards life and everyday, you cannot enter heaven.

You know how much children hate going to bed, or leaving a holiday resort. They could play forever. And that's how adults will learn to live in heaven, by a day to day adventure.
You've lived for many years, and yet you never want to die. That's how you tackle eternal life - one day at a time. And there is plenty of interest - it never ends.