Evenin' all

[Fireball]

Ninja'd by VL. This in an intro thread, fellas.

[Longhorn]

Hello

[Abaddon_ire]

The proofs offered by Native Americans religion philosophically show evolution to be impossible.

Wut?

(This is somebody's intro thread, btw. Show some manners.)

You are indeed correct. My apologies.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Newbie here. No, I'm not an atheist, I'm an orthodox Jew. However, I'm also (which is what brought me to this site) a scientist. I don't have anything particularly against atheists, except maybe the more 'militant types', but I do often find it strange that a growing number of atheists claim to place their "faith" in rationality and science, and then display an ignorance of scientific facts and method, or knowledge of common myths. I'm sure many atheists here familiar with the life sciences also cringe when they hear someone vehemently arguing that humans evolved from apes, rather than from a common ancestor!
So mainly, I'm just here to help out, given my passion for the sciences.

Nice to be aboard.

Welcome, Jollocks.

What sort of scientist are you?

Boru

[brewer]

Newbie here. No, I'm not an atheist, I'm an orthodox Jew. However, I'm also (which is what brought me to this site) a scientist. I don't have anything particularly against atheists, except maybe the more 'militant types', but I do often find it strange that a growing number of atheists claim to place their "faith" in rationality and science, and then display an ignorance of scientific facts and method, or knowledge of common myths. I'm sure many atheists here familiar with the life sciences also cringe when they hear someone vehemently arguing that humans evolved from apes, rather than from a common ancestor!
So mainly, I'm just here to help out, given my passion for the sciences.

Nice to be aboard.

Welcome.

I'm definitely science facts and method ignorant.

[Seraphina]

Hi and welcome!

-Teresa

[Jollocks]

Well, I see everyone was busy in my absence, so I'll do my best to answer a couple of points.

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[quote='Jollocks' pid='1685663' dateline='1515869696']

Then forgive me, I couldn't think of any better adjective at the time.

As for the idea of evolving from apes, well... I spend a lot of time on political debate groups. And yes, I know they're one of the worst places for debate (unless you enjoy talking about Muslims, Trump, and Brexit all day long). But the idea persists, I think mainly because in the UK there's little of any comprehensive education of evolutionary processes in schools.

"Forgive"? No forgiveness required. You did nothing "wrong". I am not familiar with the UK education system so cannot comment on it's merits or lack thereof.
[/quote]

I'm my experience it's a little bit or miss when it comes to sciences. Standard education doesn't cover a great deal of natural selection or evolution, and of course the Rutherford and Bogr models of the atomof structure are still taught, albeit obviously for simplicity.

---

Wouldn't it be best to just say we, like the others of our kind, are evolving apes?  I don't think we've evolved beyond that classification, do you?

But welcome to the forums.  I truly hope you like it here and will contribute wherever your interests are triggered.

I find the Jewish take on religion much more interesting that that of most Christians.  For one thing, I don't believe an afterlife is a popular component of most practitioners beliefs; the emphasis on life is refreshing.  My understanding is that "God" means different things to different jews and that even an atheist can be a perfectly good jew.  I'd also give a shout out for the lack of missionary work to enlist more members, nice.

I also hold scientism (but not science) in low regard.  I'll cop to being a person of faith, just not in any gods.  Of course whether any two people mean the same thing by "god" is far from settled.  Personally I find the origins of god belief to be fascinating and sometimes wonder if that could have been instrumental in some way to our transition to propositional thought and all the rest.  I don't feel the compulsion some do to sweep god belief under a carpet to avoid embarrassment, though I'm always on board to prevent the intrusion of religion into secular law.

---

[quote='Alexmahone' pid='1685676' dateline='1515870430']
Wow, plenty here.
Yes, I would say we've evolved past the point of being considered apes. I'm sure I'll expend on that at some point.
Seems you have a fairly good knowledge of Judaism, which I don't find much around the internet. So I assume you're already familiar with the adage, "ask two Jews, get three opinions".
It's true, proselytizing is illegal under Jewish law, I'm in fact traditionally Rabbis would turn away and dissuade converts three times to ensure they were doing so of their own choice, rather than due to missionaries.
And yes, it's perfectly possible to be a Jewish atheist, as the emphasis on Judaism is on actions rather than beliefs. And the afterlife doesn't seem to take up much of a Jew's day either, as the emphasis is also on life on Earth rather than life after death.
I suppose really, Sacks' (former Chief Rabbi) definition of the Torah works best: philosophy through story. We are often obsessed with use of language and academic pursuits, which I think is mainly a cultural phenomenon. And of course, scepticism (surprisingly to many), which is part of the rules regarding raising children, teaching them to question things and be sure in their mind their reasoning is correct for them. That's probably why we disagree on so much.

As for definitions of deities: I suppose that's another example why there's a lot of debate. Obviously looking for proofs or such like is a very "un-Jewish" thing to do. Mainly because it's not really a question that bothers us an awful lot - again the focus is more on actions than beliefs, life rather than death, and relationships. The closest anyone really comes is the thirteen principles of faith, and Jews often argue if some or all of them are even necessary!

---

[quote="BrianSoddingBoru4" pid='1685842' dateline='1515888146']

What sort of scientist are you?

Medical biologist, formerly infectious pathology, then I decided I had more of an interest in metabolic disease, particularly regarding obesity. Prior to that I was mostly focussed on human evolutionary traits such as the development of sexuality, altruism, and so forth, although finding funding without a PhD was needless to say, pretty difficult. I did my UG in natural sciences after switching from chemistry (although my main focus was still organic chemistry, with extra modules on astrobiology and other space-related nerdery). My MSc was evolutionary and molecular biology, after which I went to medical school, although I decided on a further BSc in biomedicine rather than completing my MBBS.
No PhD as yet - I just cannot decide what to do it on :/

[The Valkyrie]

Welcome.

[Jollocks]

Cheers!

[Whateverist]

Wouldn't it be best to just say we, like the others of our kind, are evolving apes?  I don't think we've evolved beyond that classification, do you?

But welcome to the forums.  I truly hope you like it here and will contribute wherever your interests are triggered.

I find the Jewish take on religion much more interesting that that of most Christians.  For one thing, I don't believe an afterlife is a popular component of most practitioners beliefs; the emphasis on life is refreshing.  My understanding is that "God" means different things to different jews and that even an atheist can be a perfectly good jew.  I'd also give a shout out for the lack of missionary work to enlist more members, nice.

I also hold scientism (but not science) in low regard.  I'll cop to being a person of faith, just not in any gods.  Of course whether any two people mean the same thing by "god" is far from settled.  Personally I find the origins of god belief to be fascinating and sometimes wonder if that could have been instrumental in some way to our transition to propositional thought and all the rest.  I don't feel the compulsion some do to sweep god belief under a carpet to avoid embarrassment, though I'm always on board to prevent the intrusion of religion into secular law.

Wow, plenty here.
Yes, I would say we've evolved past the point of being considered apes. I'm sure I'll expend on that at some point.
Seems you have a fairly good knowledge of Judaism, which I don't find much around the internet. So I assume you're already familiar with the adage, "ask two Jews, get three opinions".
It's true, proselytizing is illegal under Jewish law, I'm in fact traditionally Rabbis would turn away and dissuade converts three times to ensure they were doing so of their own choice, rather than due to missionaries.
And yes, it's perfectly possible to be a Jewish atheist, as the emphasis on Judaism is on actions rather than beliefs. And the afterlife doesn't seem to take up much of a Jew's day either, as the emphasis is also on life on Earth rather than life after death.
I suppose really, Sacks' (former Chief Rabbi) definition of the Torah works best: philosophy through story. We are often obsessed with use of language and academic pursuits, which I think is mainly a cultural phenomenon. And of course, scepticism (surprisingly to many), which is part of the rules regarding raising children, teaching them to question things and be sure in their mind their reasoning is correct for them. That's probably why we disagree on so much.

As for definitions of deities: I suppose that's another example why there's a lot of debate. Obviously looking for proofs or such like is a very "un-Jewish" thing to do. Mainly because it's not really a question that bothers us an awful lot - again the focus is more on actions than beliefs, life rather than death, and relationships. The closest anyone really comes is the thirteen principles of faith, and Jews often argue if some or all of them are even necessary!

Anyhow welcome.  If you decide to open a thread for discussing/clarifying aspects of Judaism I'd welcome the opportunity.  I'd also like to follow up on your reasons for removing man from the greater apes classification.  I assume you have no problem with man's place on the tree of life.  But I'll quit trying to grill you here and just leave you with some welcoming treats.