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What does one say?
#21
RE: What does one say?
(November 20, 2010 at 1:40 am)Chuck Wrote: Wrong, and typical of theistic sleight of hand. There is no first burden of proof associated with the position that "god exists" is false ...

1. Truth claims shoulder the burden of proof (given).
2. If Atheist says, "The proposition 'God exists' is not true," then Atheist has made a truth claim (conditional).
3. Atheist says, "The proposition 'God exists' is not true" (given).
4. Therefore, Atheist has made a truth claim (from 2 and 3).
5. Therefore, Atheist shoulders the burden of proof (from 1 and 4).

This argument is valid, and it is sound if 2 can be supported. So then...

6. If "God exists" is not true, then "God does not exist" is true (see note).
7. "God exists" is not true (from 3).
8. Therefore, "God does not exist" is true (from 6 and 7).

[NOTE]

Contradiction:
If God exists is true, then God exists is not true.

Contradiction: If God does not exist is true, then God does not exist is not true.

Tautology: If God exists is true, then God does not exist is not true.

Equivalence (proving Atheist truth claim): If God exists is not true, then God does not exist is true.

Thus, by saying that "God exists" is not true, one is saying that "God does not exist" is true. It is a negative ontological truth claim that is inordinately difficult to support, which is why reasonable atheists avoid making such claims. It's not theistic sleight of hand; it's logical modus ponens.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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#22
RE: What does one say?
Invisible Pink Unicorns do not exist.

Truth claim. Must I provide proof?


EVERYTHING is logically possible. Is it logically probable?

There are invisible purple dancing gnomes from another dimension in my backyard.
Logically possible? Sure, why not?
Logically probable? Nah. The claim can be dismissed without shouldering any proof of their non existance.



Little Tommy has an invisible friend. Little Suzy says 'Tommy says his invisible friend is real, is he?'
You: "Sure, it's possible, you can't prove his invisible friend is not real so we have to accept the possibility he could be real."
Suzy: "Really? What about the monsters in the dark and under my bed? Mommy says they are not real, are they?"
You: "Well since your mommy can't prove they are not real, they very well could be real and under there."
Suzy: "WHA..?! But they're gonna get me! What do I do?"
You: "Just pray to my invisible friend Jesus Christ to protect you........."

Seems once you start sliding down that slope you'd be unable to stop.
I used to tell a lot of religious jokes. Not any more, I'm a registered sects offender.
---------------
...the least christian thing a person can do is to become a christian. ~Chuck
---------------
NO MA'AM
[Image: attemptingtogiveadamnc.gif]
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#23
RE: What does one say?
(November 20, 2010 at 9:20 am)Dotard Wrote: "Invisible Pink Unicorns do not exist." Truth claim. Must I provide proof?

Nope. You're free to assert truth claims without any proof. However, what can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. Incidentally, "IPUs are possible" and "IPUs are probable" are categorically different from what your truth claim asserted, "IPUs are not actual" (do not exist).
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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#24
RE: What does one say?
Back on topic... It really annoys me that 'the religious' insist that their beliefs are off limits and/or must be respected. If one does not believe that a god exists and has the audacity to say so out loud, 'the religious' act as if you have attacked them personally. My lack of belief in your god is not an insult to you (the generic 'you', not anyone in particular) and should not be taken as such. The angry reaction my lack of belief inspires indicates that you are insecure in your beliefs and seek validation. You claim there is a god and I do not believe you. Don't make it out as if I have done you wrong. I have the right to disagree, even if my disagreement upsets you.

That's not to say that I should go out of my way to be offensive to you concerning your belief in a god, but your passive aggressive attempts to oppress my lack of belief is offensive to me. How dare you accuse me of oppression when all I have done is disagree.

/rant
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#25
RE: What does one say?
(November 20, 2010 at 8:59 am)Arcanus Wrote: Thus, by saying that "God exists" is not true, one is saying that "God does not exist" is true. It is a negative ontological truth claim that is inordinately difficult to support, which is why reasonable atheists avoid making such claims. It's not theistic sleight of hand; it's logical modus ponens.

It is a lot easier to say 'god does not exist' than to say 'given the complete abscence of any proof or any reasonable argument for a god then i believe that it is unlikely that a god or gods exists'

I never believed in god but I used to believe in santa.

After all I had proof of his existance once a year and my parents were adamant that it was true that there was a santa.

It was a compelling story and I was hooked.

just remembered its five weeks today isnt it.

Merry christams everybody.



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








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#26
RE: What does one say?
I have a friend who apparently when she was in her 20's and 30's had a really bad cocaine addiction. She says that she was really high one night and saw a 'round laughing man' who would not stop pointing at her and laughing. She decided that it was a demon that was laughing at her (no it's your subconscious kicked into survival mode) and she went to rehab. She's one of these "demon" believers. (BTW has anyone found a demon fossil or demon remains in any of these archeological dig sites?) She spent years talking about that Demon. One day I finally asked her if demons were evil why did this particular demon put you on the road to recovery. Silence truly is golden! Thinking
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#27
RE: What does one say?
(November 20, 2010 at 11:49 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: It is a lot easier to say, "God does not exist," than to say, "Given the complete abscence of any proof or any reasonable argument for a god, I believe that it is unlikely that a god or gods exists."

It might be easier to say, but it subjects the atheist to a heavy burden of proof. Moreover, the statement "God does not exist" means that God's existence has zero probability, which is quite different from what the atheist really means, that God's existence has a very low probability; ergo, that atheist is engaging in disingenuous sophistry.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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#28
RE: What does one say?
Quote:It really annoys me that 'the religious' insist that their beliefs are off limits and/or must be respected.

Why do you think I never do it?

Big Grin
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