I will become Atheist if.....

[Mystic]

You are in short saying humans have compassion and love for one another. Sure I agree. But you haven't shown how the equation works without the big guy.

What equation!? What are you talking about?! Lol

lol you said equation, so I just re-worded your metaphor.

All you have to do is justify value of a human being from an Atheistic framework. Yes I know Atheist value human beings. But I'm asking you to justify value itself.

[Edwardo Piet]

I've already done it. Values exist in the brain. That's how humans are able to experience them in the first place, and why everyone's values are different.

[Mystic]

Let's just start with some preliminaries, then. We'll ignore evolution in this conversation.

If it turned out that every human body was inhabited by an immaterial soul, would that mean that it deserves moral regard (just based on that)? Why or why not?

Love values personality and intelligence as more beautiful than body beauty? Agree or disagree?

In this case, immaterial soul would not be a physical thing as well, it would be a program like a software generated by a material thing, would it not?

[Brian37]

As an aside to BOTH theists of any label and atheists too.

Certain words bother me when talking about going from one position to another in either direction.

You don't convert or de-convert. And you don't become, in either direction. 

You simply buy into a POSITION or leave a position. 

It is easy for people to say "I am an atheist" or "I am a Christian" or "I am a Muslim". No, we are all human beings. Those labels are the positions we hold, they are not our genes. 

You don't de-convert out of a restaurant, you leave a restaurant. You don't convert into a restaurant, you go into a restaurant. 

Convert makes it sound like you are a Transformer toy, going from a car to a giant robot. 

Our labels are positions we hold, they are not our genes.

[Whateverist]

Does a soul only deserve moral respect if it is immaterial?

For starters, you have to show how the material thing get's something called value.

Sorry if I’ve got the end of your quote wrong but deleting the rest of your text on my cell phone was tricky.

I wanted to ask if you think the case for immaterial things having value has been adequately made. Me, I’ve only ever experienced material persons demonstrating competency with value, never any of your kind.

[The Grand Nudger]

It;s really easy Mystic.  Use your own justification and simply sub in the word "god" for "my wife" or "steve".  The justification is identical, and if you accept that you have value because you have value to "inset the other guy here" it doesn't really matter whether or not the other guy is god, your wife....or some rando named Steve. I mean hell, it could just be you.

They are functionally identical justifications...and in offering it we certainly haven;t plumbed the depths of all justification.

[Edwardo Piet]

Love values personality and intelligence as more beautiful than body beauty? Agree or disagree?

Sometimes yes, other times no. Love values what the lover loves... (love, love, "love" is a verb, "love" is a doing word. Fearless on my breath. But that's enough quoting my favorite Massive Attack song).

Ultra shallow lovers definitely value the body more than personality and intelligence.

[Mystic]

If it turned out that every human body was inhabited by an immaterial soul, would that mean that it deserves moral regard (just based on that)? Why or why not?

Value cannot be arbitrary for it to be meaningful to me.

And value if it was not eternal, would be arbitrary.

Just the very fact value came to be and didn't always exist, from Atheistic framework, makes it arbitrary.

This is true even if a Creator exists. If a creator was valueless and created value, then value as we know it would not be what it is but rather an arbitrary illusion and deception.

All value of all things existed before in a unity from my perspective.  If they didn't, then their creation would not be based on truth but falsehood and arbitrary nature.

And than meaning in value becomes rather meaningless.  Like some drug we depend on to feel good but has no reality.

[vulcanlogician]

Let's just start with some preliminaries, then. We'll ignore evolution in this conversation.

If it turned out that every human body was inhabited by an immaterial soul, would that mean that it deserves moral regard (just based on that)? Why or why not?

Love values personality and intelligence as more beautiful than body beauty? Agree or disagree?

In this case, immaterial soul would not be a physical thing as well, it would be a program like a software generated by a material thing, would it not?

We were just talking about this in the other thread. Sentience is a good measure for moral regard. You can bang a rock against a wall (because a rock doesn't feel pain). That would be morally permissible.

It is not morally permissible to bang another person's head against a wall. Why? Because it would hurt them. 

If we went by personality and intelligence, it might be morally permissible to take a severely mentally retarded person and bang his/her head against a wall, even though it would still hurt them. That doesn't sound right, does it?

Therefore, regardless of what "love values," intelligence and personality are not matters for consideration when when speaking of moral responsibility.

[Aegon]

What equation!? What are you talking about?! Lol

lol you said equation, so I just re-worded your metaphor.

All you have to do is justify value of a human being from an Atheistic framework. Yes I know Atheist value human beings. But I'm asking you to justify value itself.

My point is that it's self-evident. We hold value because we exist, and are alive, and feel anger and happiness and pain and sorrow and displacement and family and love and hate, and we are born and we die and all there is is what's in the middle. Our lives are spent impacting other lives. We are complex beings who crave meaning and belonging. Our existence is justification of our value. That's it. I can't make it simpler than that. For some reason you think it must be further complicated. In your eyes you can't see why I would see value in things without God. And I think that is incredibly sad. I think you should drop your beliefs and learn to see and cherish the value in things without it. Learn to see deeper meaning in the material. Because if your belief in God is the only reason anything holds value or meaning... then that isn't real, and you cannot be truly happy. From my perspective, anyway. I think I recall telling you this a month or two ago, MK. You have to find meaning within yourself and the nature around you without God, or you will be stuck in this rut of yours forever, never feeling true bliss. I know you've had issues with this from your past posts. I'm not asking you to abandon your faith, but rather put it in the backseat for a while. Once you feel comfortable looking at things from this atheist's perspective, like I've been outlining to you, then return to it. I think you will be more at peace.

But I'm just some idiot on a forum. Who knows if what I'm saying holds any merit.