Is humility a virtue?

[Anomalocaris]

I admit I have a visceral reaction when I hear people bragging about themselves or their accomplishments. I'm not sure if it's something leftover from my Christian upbringing that put a high value on humility. Many today feel there's nothing wrong with talking about your good qualities or your accomplishments because it shows self-confidence. Of course overdoing it can make it look like someone is overcompensating. What is your view?

I define humility as accepting the truth even if it's from the child.  It's willing to admit your wrong when you are, and being honest to yourself, and not being unbalanced in how highly you think of yourself over others, belittling others while giving yourself the highest mantle of honor.

Of course what you mention is something else. That is bragging. Bragging and praising yourself is hated because humans seek perfection and ought to be on the look out to be greater, and if you are bragging, it means you think little of your faults and much of your good traits, and that tilts you away from the path and shows you are to a degree not caring to perfect yourself.

And if you are totally pure, you can't claim it, because you have no proof. So best thing is silence.  I am learning that now. Neither exposing your sins neither associating others in your sacred journey to the beloved, that you seek their praise and pleasure, and admiration.

This is what Imam Jaffar said to one of his students:

A person who is deluded is wretched in this world, and is duped in the next world because he has sold what is better for what is baser. Do not admire yourself. Sometimes you may be deceived by your property and your bodily health into supposing that you will last forever. Sometimes you are deceived by your long life, your children and your friends into thinking that you will be saved by them. Sometimes you are deceived by your beauty and the circumstances of your birth, which bring you your hopes and desires so easily that you think that you are truthful and successful in achieving your goal.

Sometimes you are deceived by the regret you show people for your shortcoming in worship, but Allah knows the opposite of that is in your heart. Sometimes you make yourself worship in a spirit of reluctance; but Allah desires sincerity. Sometimes you imagine that you are calling on Allah when you are calling on another. Sometimes you imagine that you are giving good counsel to people, while your real desire is that they bow to you. Sometimes you blame yourself when you are really praising yourself.
 
Know that you will only emerge from the darkness of delusion and desire by sincerely turning in repentance to Almighty Allah, and to whatever you know about Him, and to recognize the faults in your self which are not consistent with your intellect and knowledge, and which the faith, the law and the customary practices of the Holy Prophet and the Imams of guidance do not tolerate.
 
If you are content with your present condition, there is no one more wretched than you in knowledge and action, nor anyone with a more wasted life. You will inherit grief on the Day of Resurrection.

In reality your humility is to act like a child while treating your betters as if their are children to your adult.

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Humility is a great virtue, not to be confussed with self loathing of any sorts. Having self worth and self respect is not in conflict with the virtue of humility.

Self-loathing, for certain pious believers, is recommend by the traditions attributed to the household of Mohammad.  Imam Ali in Nahjul balagha describing the pious says their hate for themselves is great.

That is different than humility, but the self-blaming soul can reach a state where it hates what it has become, but has compassion enough for itself to change and move forward.

To be distressed at the evil we have reached, is good, because it's the distressed ones of the people of evil that God has promised to remove the evil from.

That's why Mohammed is shit even had his religion not gone down hill from the nadir he prepetrated.

[Mystic]

I define humility as accepting the truth even if it's from the child.  It's willing to admit your wrong when you are, and being honest to yourself, and not being unbalanced in how highly you think of yourself over others, belittling others while giving yourself the highest mantle of honor.

Of course what you mention is something else. That is bragging. Bragging and praising yourself is hated because humans seek perfection and ought to be on the look out to be greater, and if you are bragging, it means you think little of your faults and much of your good traits, and that tilts you away from the path and shows you are to a degree not caring to perfect yourself.

And if you are totally pure, you can't claim it, because you have no proof. So best thing is silence.  I am learning that now. Neither exposing your sins neither associating others in your sacred journey to the beloved, that you seek their praise and pleasure, and admiration.

This is what Imam Jaffar said to one of his students:

A person who is deluded is wretched in this world, and is duped in the next world because he has sold what is better for what is baser. Do not admire yourself. Sometimes you may be deceived by your property and your bodily health into supposing that you will last forever. Sometimes you are deceived by your long life, your children and your friends into thinking that you will be saved by them. Sometimes you are deceived by your beauty and the circumstances of your birth, which bring you your hopes and desires so easily that you think that you are truthful and successful in achieving your goal.

Sometimes you are deceived by the regret you show people for your shortcoming in worship, but Allah knows the opposite of that is in your heart. Sometimes you make yourself worship in a spirit of reluctance; but Allah desires sincerity. Sometimes you imagine that you are calling on Allah when you are calling on another. Sometimes you imagine that you are giving good counsel to people, while your real desire is that they bow to you. Sometimes you blame yourself when you are really praising yourself.
 
Know that you will only emerge from the darkness of delusion and desire by sincerely turning in repentance to Almighty Allah, and to whatever you know about Him, and to recognize the faults in your self which are not consistent with your intellect and knowledge, and which the faith, the law and the customary practices of the Holy Prophet and the Imams of guidance do not tolerate.
 
If you are content with your present condition, there is no one more wretched than you in knowledge and action, nor anyone with a more wasted life. You will inherit grief on the Day of Resurrection.

In reality your humility is to act like a child while treating your betters as if their are children to your adult.

---

Self-loathing, for certain pious believers, is recommend by the traditions attributed to the household of Mohammad.  Imam Ali in Nahjul balagha describing the pious says their hate for themselves is great.

That is different than humility, but the self-blaming soul can reach a state where it hates what it has become, but has compassion enough for itself to change and move forward.

To be distressed at the evil we have reached, is good, because it's the distressed ones of the people of evil that God has promised to remove the evil from.

That's why Mohammed is shit even had his religion not gone down hill from the nadir he prepetrated.

What is funny is your response is as if you want me to hate myself. Ironic.

[Catholic_Lady]

Well, we should feel ashamed for our wrong doings. And acknowledging that and feeling remorse for it, is humility.

Yes. We should feel ashamed for bad actions (or at least guilty)... but not for our character. I guess I see guilt as always better than shame, and guilt cultures as superior to shame cultures. There's a difference between feeling bad about something bad you did, and hating who you are as a person (and your own soul if you believe in souls). I don't think even God, if I pretend he exists for a second, would want you to be ashamed of your own personality no matter how bad what you did was, only guilty for your behavior and wrongdoing. What do you think? From a religious perspective, surely our body, our minds and even our souls are given to us by god, and so it's wrong to feel ashamed of them no matter how much we become consumed by sin, as at their core from a religious perspective they're ultimately god-given. Surely it is only our choices, from a religious perspective, and from the perspective of people who believe in free will, that we can truly own. What do you think?

I think we may be on the same page and just struggling a little over semantics. I'm not sure what the distinction is between guilt and shame, as I see those 2 words as being synonymous. As for my character, I do feel ashamed/guilty of my character flaws. I, as a human being, am not perfect. And I think it's crucial to acknowledge that first, so you can then acknowledge that you're not always in the right. The latter follows from the former. 
With that being said, you are correct that we believe God loves us all individually, and would have died that horrible death even if you or I were the only people in the world. God puts tremendous value on us, and so we should put value on ourselves and everyone else as fellow humans.  

The virtue of humility I think can be summed up best in 3 ways:

1. Knowing that you're not always right.

2. Willingness to admit to and apologize for mistakes/wrongdoings.

3. Not seeing yourself above other people.  

It has nothing to do with hating yourself, which isn't healthy.

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Christians are told to exhibit humility so as to encourage them to be more docile before their handlers,  to say nothing of more gullible before their scripture and doctrine.  Humility is also thought to be a good tool to encourage the victims of christian proslytizing to lower their nature guard.

Lol, yep. Exactly that. Tell me more!

[RoadRunner79]

I admit I have a visceral reaction when I hear people bragging about themselves or their accomplishments. I'm not sure if it's something leftover from my Christian upbringing that put a high value on humility. Many today feel there's nothing wrong with talking about your good qualities or your accomplishments because it shows self-confidence. Of course overdoing it can make it look like someone is overcompensating. What is your view?

The biblical teachings on humility where some of the first things that I was drawn to, when I became a Christian.   To realize that it's not all about me, and that I'm not entitled to nearly as much as I think.  That it is better to let others lift you up, rather than assume that you are better than you are.  I always liked this from C.S. Lewis.

To even get near [humility], even for a moment, is like a drink of cold water to a man in a desert.
Do not imagine that if you meet a really humble man he will be what most people call “humble” nowadays: he will not be a sort of greasy, smarmy person, who is always telling you that, of course, he is nobody.
Probably all you will think about him is that he seemed a cheerful, intelligent chap who took a real interest in what you said to him.
If you do dislike him it will be because you feel a little envious of anyone who seems to enjoy life so easily. He will not be thinking about humility: he will not be thinking about himself at all.

[Catholic_Lady]

Humility is a great virtue, not to be confussed with self loathing of any sorts. Having self worth and self respect is not in conflict with the virtue of humility.

Self-loathing, for certain pious believers, is recommend by the traditions attributed to the household of Mohammad.  Imam Ali in Nahjul balagha describing the pious says their hate for themselves is great.

That is different than humility, but the self-blaming soul can reach a state where it hates what it has become, but has compassion enough for itself to change and move forward.

To be distressed at the evil we have reached, is good, because it's the distressed ones of the people of evil that God has promised to remove the evil from.

There is a very important and significant distinction between hating yourself, and hating the wrong thing you did. So much so, that Christianity generally discourages suicide and self harm, and regards such acts as deeply immoral.

[Anomalocaris]

In reality your humility is to act like a child while treating your betters as if their are children to your adult.

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That's why Mohammed is shit even had his religion not gone down hill from the nadir he prepetrated.

What is funny is your response is as if you want me to hate myself. Ironic.

No, I want you to be worthy of loving yourself, and not value yourself based on whether you can drag others down to your level.

[Bahana]

That's interesting all the different definitions of humility that people can have. I've always thought of it as just letting your actions speak for themselves and not bragging about how well you can do something or how good a person you are. To let others praise you rather than praising yourself.

[Catholic_Lady]

That's interesting all the different definitions of humility that people can have. I've always thought of it as just letting your actions speak for themselves and not bragging about how well you can do something or how good a person you are. To let others praise you rather than praising yourself.

Well put. I feel like what I said encompasses this for sure.

[Anomalocaris]

The only definition of humility that seem to make it a worthwhile trait is to not overvalue oneself relative to one's fellow men.

Even bragging is no big flaw so long as you remember that about which you brag usually has negligible impact on your value next to your fellow men.

[Mystic]

Self-loathing, for certain pious believers, is recommend by the traditions attributed to the household of Mohammad.  Imam Ali in Nahjul balagha describing the pious says their hate for themselves is great.

That is different than humility, but the self-blaming soul can reach a state where it hates what it has become, but has compassion enough for itself to change and move forward.

To be distressed at the evil we have reached, is good, because it's the distressed ones of the people of evil that God has promised to remove the evil from.

There is a very important and significant distinction between hating yourself, and hating the wrong thing you did. So much so, that Christianity generally discourages suicide and self harm, and regards such acts as deeply immoral.

Compassion of God encompasses even Satan, never let go of compassion.

Despising what we have become doesn't mean not having compassion for yourself or being good to yourself. 

For some souls the step is never necessary. For many it is,  because I left faith in God and his Messengers, and was an anti-Christ in the sense I hate the view that God chooses and anoints a King among us and Leader to unite on, and guidance in form of a group of guides....and have done nothing for the oppressed.

The path of redemption has to go through this route for sometime for some souls. 

Of course, you always been on track of believing in God and his Messengers, so... you probably don't need it.

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What is funny is your response is as if you want me to hate myself. Ironic.

No, I want you to be worthy of loving yourself, and not value yourself based on whether you can drag others down to your level.

So you want me to hate myself to transition to a position where I truthfully appreciate myself. This is exactly how I understand the Prophet and his family, except, they aren't so rude in how they say it.