In the beginning....

[Fireball]

We know that ancient people passed down stories by word of mouth and it was important that the story remained unchanged, that it stayed true, accurate for the coming generations. So we believe that Adam and Eve passed down the creation story as it was told to them by the One who not only witnessed it but accomplished it, so the story come from the source who is not capable of lying. Yes God did reveal to Moses what was to be written in the book of Genesis. The fact is it doesn't change a thing because you have decided not to believe these things. In the beginning God did and is still doing so to this day, your parents conceived you and God place a soul within that union of egg and sperm and you were and are. You're very life is God's because of the action He took.

GC

There is so much wrong in this,  I don't know where to begin.

I just shake my head in admiration at the amount of Kool-Aid® that had to be consumed for a person to get this way.

[possibletarian]

It does not matter how accurately stories are passed down, unless they are true in the first place.
If they are fantasy they simply remain accurate representations of fantasy.

[vorlon13]

For a book that prides itself on the witness of the characters within it to prove its accuracy, there's a lack of witnesses for the beginning and even the first several books of the bible.

I'm certain believers in the Christian myth are fine with accepting that certain supposed authors were divinely inspired enough to write the accounts they did.

The truth is that a divinely inspired claim is just that.  I certainly trust it no more than when Gerald Gardner or Joseph Smith or Ron Hubbard made their wild claims; yet, people are willing to accept any sort of claim for the sake of comfort and community.

In the end, the beginnings of what religion claims is nothing more than fanciful imagination.

We know that ancient people passed down stories by word of mouth and it was important that the story remained unchanged, that it stayed true, accurate for thcoming generations. So we believe that Adam and Eve passed down the creation story as it was told to them by the One who not only witnessed it but accomplished it, so the story come from the source who is not capable of lying. Yes God did reveal to Moses what was to be written in the book of Genesis. The fact is it doesn't change a thing because you have decided not to believe these things. In the beginning God did and is still doing so to this day, your parents conceived you and God place a soul within that union of egg and sperm and you were and are. You're very life is God's because of the action He took.

GC

(emphasis mine)

Are we sure about the lying part ??


1 Kings 22 (KJV)
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.


2 Thessalonians 2 (KJV)
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Ezekiel 14 (KJV)
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.


2 Chronicles 18 (KJV)
22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee.

[Succubus]

<some excellent stuff sniped>
In general, the trouble with biblical narratives is not that they aren't grounded in history, but that they aren't grounded in the timeframe they purport to be. The narrative is confused, compiled during and post exile, and most of the narratives mix a mythologized and legendary (but still descriptively historical) past with then-present moments and more than a little bit of ideological propaganda...

Thank you for that synopsis. Atheist Forums at its very best.

[Foxaèr]

The traditional assumption is that God was a witness to these events and that He relayed the information to Moses. It's fine to knock assumptions which can't logically be defended, but when you make complaints for which there is a plausible explanation, you just look silly.

Hooey.

---

Kit. In the defence of the bible (Khem has showed me a lot of interesting interpretation of passages which has given me a lot more respect for the bible as a snapshot of the thinking of the times. I'm always interested in hearing about historical stuff like that)

I'd like to ask the many intelligent people here who have read the bible thoroughly a couple more questions.

Taking aside the manipulative religious aspect of the book, (this obviously includes all the magic stuff), how would you rate it out of 10 as a book as far as impacting your life goes?
Have any stories or parables changed you for the better or worse? Was it a good fascinating insight into life at the time?

If I was to tear out all the pages which weren't scientifically accurate, which were trying to dictate how I should live my life, and all the magic bits, what would be left for me to enjoy with a cup of tea? I hope at least half, but I could very well be the one who is deluded?


(Kit, forgive me! I'm always derailing shit wherever I go! I can't help it! lol... I just love learning stuff and when a question pops in my head, I think ohh ohh I better ask before I forget...)

From my perspective, there is no reasonable defense for the bible.

Derail ahead. xD

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We know that ancient people passed down stories by word of mouth and it was important that the story remained unchanged, that it stayed true, accurate for the coming generations.

You ever play a game of telephone?

It is almost certain that oral stories are altered with each new individual's telling. That's just how communication works.

[Minimalist]

Prepare for G-C to declare that his "bible" ( a 17th century re-write ) is different!

[Godscreated]

was told to them by the One who not only witnessed it but accomplished it, so the story come from the source who is not capable of lying.

GC

Cut the crap GC, God of the OT lies all the time in the Bible. He lied already already In Genesis 2:17 God says, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." -- And yet Adam didn't die the same day

First you speak as if you believe and I know you do not so what you say has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Second they did die that very day, they were separated from God and spiritually dead. More ways than one to die. Your misinterpretation fails.

Then some other examples of this "source who is not capable of lying" actually lying

2 Chronicles 18:22 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy propheths,
Jeremiah 20:7 "O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived
2 Thessalonians 2:11 "God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.

Just how is it you see that God is lying. Others believing what is false doesn't mean God lied. Deception is a part of the game of chess and that is not lying. Giving false prophets a lying spirit only confirms what they do, they lie not God. You have a weak understanding of the scriptures.  

God not only lies but tells people to lie: 1 Samuel 16:2 Samuel says, "How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me. And the Lord said, Take an heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the Lord." - you see God is not only aiding and abetting a deception, but deliberately telling a man what lie to use. Samuel is actually going out to meet a son of Jesse and anoint him king, not to sacrifice a heifer.

You must be kidding, well no I trust you are so ignorant of the scripture that you will believe anything you read on biased websites. God gave Samuel a way of avoiding Saul's temper. Deception is not necessarily lying as I showed above with the game of chess. You make yourself look foolish by repeating things from biased sites that Christians long ago have put to rest.

Examples of Jesus lying

Matt. 13:31-32
"The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."

A mustard seed is not the least of all seeds, when grown, it is not the greatest among herbs, and a mustard seed does not give rise to a tree.

First let me say I've seen what people call trees in other parts of this country that I would call a bush, yet they are trees by a scientific definition. Second the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds known to the Jews of that day. Jesus used this as a proverbial statement to show how something so small can become so large in comparison of size. The mustard plant that Jesus was speaking of could grow up to ten feet tall and there are trees that are shorter than that. The Rabbis used this proverbial saying before Jesus did, it is a way to convey a meaning. Boy for someone who says the Bible can't be taken literally you sure find it convenient to take it literally to prove your point when the passage was never meant to be literal or scientific. Mustard was considered a very important herb in all it's forms for thousands of years, from a food source to medicine. 
 

John 7:8-10 Jesus said to some of his followers, "Go to the feast yourselves: I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come. So saying he remained in Galilee. But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly, but in private."

Jesus said he was not going up, but later he went up secretly.

Without even looking up the verse for it's context I will say that for one to change his mind is not a lie and even if He had intended to go the whole time deception for reason of secrecy is not a lie. You will believe the warped mines of those who print biases against Jesus no matter how stupid it makes you look, don't you fill silly, you sure look that way.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." - And yet Jesus was supposed to be dead on that day and not in paradise

God the Son certainly was in paradise that day, the body was dead not the spirit, ie. soul. Again if you new just a small bit about Christianity you would have known this. 
 

Matt. 12:40 "For as Jonas was three days in the whale's belly."

And yet Jonah 1:17 says, "Now the lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah."

Whale is not a fish

 In that time they did not distinguish between the two, Jesus was not conducting a taxonomy class He was giving a message to His disciples that He would die and then rise to life on the third day. Why don't you quit being so ridiculous and try to learn something. Using the web to get biased info makes you look quite foolish, do the work on your own.

GC

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We know that ancient people passed down stories by word of mouth and it was important that the story remained unchanged, that it stayed true, accurate for the coming generations. So we believe that Adam and Eve passed down the creation story as it was told to them by the One who not only witnessed it but accomplished it, so the story come from the source who is not capable of lying. Yes God did reveal to Moses what was to be written in the book of Genesis. The fact is it doesn't change a thing because you have decided not to believe these things. In the beginning God did and is still doing so to this day, your parents conceived you and God place a soul within that union of egg and sperm and you were and are. You're very life is God's because of the action He took.

GC

There is so much wrong in this,  I don't know where to begin.

 Could it be you are not intelligent enough to dispute fact.

GC

---

We know that ancient people passed down stories by word of mouth and it was important that the story remained unchanged, that it stayed true, accurate for thcoming generations. So we believe that Adam and Eve passed down the creation story as it was told to them by the One who not only witnessed it but accomplished it, so the story come from the source who is not capable of lying. Yes God did reveal to Moses what was to be written in the book of Genesis. The fact is it doesn't change a thing because you have decided not to believe these things. In the beginning God did and is still doing so to this day, your parents conceived you and God place a soul within that union of egg and sperm and you were and are. You're very life is God's because of the action He took.

GC

(emphasis mine)

Are we sure about the lying part ??


1 Kings 22   (KJV)
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.


2 Thessalonians 2   (KJV)
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Ezekiel 14    (KJV)
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.


2 Chronicles 18   (KJV)
22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee.

 Already done this with FM you can get your answer in my reply to that post. What's the matter with you guys can't you even come up with new things the Christians here have shown your logic on these things to fail completely. Copying biased works from biased people from sites set up as biased sure makes you look foolish. I do not know how many times over the years I said this yet you all continue to do things like this that frankly should be an embarrassment to you.

GC

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We know that ancient people passed down stories by word of mouth and it was important that the story remained unchanged, that it stayed true, accurate for the coming generations.

You ever play a game of telephone?

It is almost certain that oral stories are altered with each new individual's telling.  That's just how communication works.

 I like this, "almost certain," meaning we do not know. The Jewish people prided themselves in being completely accurate in the retelling of stories so the meaning wouldn't be lost to the next generation. No communication doesn't work that way, spicing up a story to make it more interesting and less believable does though, you know like the stories the atheist here tell about the Word of God.

GC

[Fake Messiah]

you speak as if you believe and I know you do not so what you say has to be taken with a grain of salt.

I speak as if it happened in the fictional universe, just like SW fans discuss if the rebels killed innocent workers when they destroyed Death Star in "Return Of Jedi"

Just how is it you see that God is lying.

Because they said it.

the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds known to the Jews of that day.

Even first-century Palestinian farmers knew of a few other seeds that were smaller, such as the black orchid.

[Joods]

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There is so much wrong in this,  I don't know where to begin.

 Could it be you are not intelligent enough to dispute fact.

GC

Not at all. You knew exactly what it meant so your attempt at an insult, fails.

[Fake Messiah]