Our role(s) as Christians on Atheist Forums

[Godscreated]

Guess it's time for my finial statement. My role changed shortly after being here, or should I say my role was recognized by me shortly after being here, God always knew. I'm here to be a witness to those who want to hear and see, to explain the scriptures to those who want to defile them and support my fellow brothers and sisters. Also, I'm here to correct those who bring deliberate false doctrine to this site, doctrine that will because of it's falsehood bring harm to the Christian faith. I fear nothing, no one brings fear into my life because I have God on my side and holds securely to me and instructs me in truth eternal. My cousin was talking to me about why I'm here the other day and even he as a believer could not understand and I said to myself at the end of our discussion, I'm here because I know for certain God is real and I want others to know Him, that is Christian love and I intend to practice it here until God says, leave this place.

GC

[vulcanlogician]

Our First Question Comes from Mh. Brewer:


Is there anything that can be demonstrated, said, argued, proved, .............. that would change your belief in your god?

Today is the answers phase where participants will simply answer the question. The next two days will be response phases followed by a final statements phase.

[Drich]

Answer to the above question.

Yes two ways. One if God explained/showed the need for change or a shift in belief (which believe it or has happened with with me through various experiences meeting a messenger and or a few 'Dreams/visions.)

I went from a basic misotheist to helping other to understand God better.

Two via God changing the bible, which happened in the late 1940's via the scrolls @ qumran where a series of OT passages were found hundreds of years older than what we have had before. the changes were minor as it shows that people are very faithful in transcribing what was written so long ago, but one of the major changes had us change one of the 10 commandments from thou shalt not kill to thou shalt not murder. for most this means the same. however for the jew the difference is to kill is can be accidental or it can be purposed command fro the state of God. To murder is to kill according to one's own desire or accord. to be filled with hate and or to kill to steal is generally how murders differ from being killed.

The way the law originally read meant no deaths were permitted which conflicted with the rest of the OT, and not it read we are not allowed to murder.

So basically theologically I can be changed if a vetted source of the bible get recognised and changed what I've been taught, or God can come and do it Himself.

Is 'science' a factor in how I will perceive God? No science is just another faith based instution that allows people choice in belief. for me to change my belief to science it would take far more faith than what I possess as I've seen and experienced far too much God to be lead anywhere by 'science.' Someone'es guess on how the universe works will never trump what I have personally witnessed.

[SteveII]

QUESTION: Is there anything that can be demonstrated, said, argued, proved, .............. that would change your belief in your god?

I don't think so. There are two sides of this coin. The first is what kind of new information is possible and how would it relate to the Christian belief. The second is what supports the belief now that would have to be undermined. 

In answer to the first side of the coin (what kinds of information could we anticipate) and using the exact terms in the question:

  1. Demonstrated:

• Scientifically - As I have pointed out time and time again, you have to distinguish between the natural world and the supernatural world. Anything that would be 'demonstrated' from the natural world does not have much impact on what the supernatural world might be. I might modify individual views if science comes up with something that is contrary to the view I hold.
  
• Historically - Someone would have to come up NEW period evidence that convincingly backs an alternate theory of why we have the NT.
  
• Other beliefs - Some other belief system has thorough and incontrovertible evidence that it is true as well as having convincing answers for life's most difficult question and which has concepts that better reflect the reality we live in. I have surveyed all other religions and there are no candidates that come close to matching that of Christianity in these areas. 
  

  2. Said or Argued: There is so little being discussed today that has not been discussed for decades or, more likely, centuries. So many atheists think that modern science and thinking is going to be the demise of Christianity. This is simply a failure to understand what Christianity is.
  3. Proved: There are two kinds of proofs that apply here--physical and metaphysical. (1) addressed the former and (2) addressed the latter. 

The second side of the coin (what supports the belief that would need to be undermined):

  4. Reliability of the NT. Like I have also said many times, there are no credible, evidenced, theories that address all (or even a majority) of the data points we have about the NT. There is a difference between not believing the NT (as most of the people here do not) and having a more plausible theory that explains the facts we know. It would take the latter to begin to undermine this cornerstone of Christianity.
  5. Personal Experience. The new information would have to be significant in order to get any Christian, with a real faith journey behind him/her, to admit that their experiences and those around them, who's personal testimony they believe, are illusory. 
  6. The Message of Jesus is so relevant to all kinds of aspects of human life. As a theory of 'the human condition', it is not only complete, but has been been applicable for 2000 years. There has been no newer, more-likely-to be-true psychological theories that undermine it. That is truly amazing from a first century carpenter and a bunch of fishermen. 
  7. Natural theology: There are several concepts about first cause, fine tuning, consciousness, and morality that would have to take a hit to undermine my belief in God. 

As you see, belief in God is multifaceted and is built on a cumulative group of reasons/evidence. The more you understand, as a whole big picture: the natural world, history, theology, psychology, relationships, and our experiences and the experiences of those around us, the task of undermining to the point of rejecting that belief is not a real possibility.

[Neo-Scholastic]

The question rests on a couple of assumptions that I must address first to provide context for my answer.

The first assumption is that people form beliefs entirely in response to external inputs, as if, mental life was simply a reaction to the world and not a participation within it. I.e. the notion that someone does not, in any meaningful way, choose his beliefs; but rather, he is compelled by experience and reflection to hold certain beliefs.

For example, upon reading a book or watching an online video, and assuming the points made in them seem reasonable, he is led inexorably to draw the same conclusions as the author/maker and beliefs take root in his mind until displaced after someone else makes a more compelling case or upon further reflection he determines that the arguments are not as sound as they initially appeared. In other words, the question seems to exclude the possibility of choice in what one believes. The second assumption is that various ideas have definable degrees of certainty. Those deemed, by rational analysis, most likely to be true, dictate what one must believe. I reject both assumptions.

The human condition is such that everyone is at every moment confronted with his or her own existence must decide how to interact with a world that seems wholly Other. I completely agree with Sartre that “Man is condemned to be free.” As such, if I wanted, I could change any of my initial assumptions at any time for no reason at all. And if I did then I would have to face the subsequent nihilism entailed by making a different existential choice. So I ask myself if it would be wise to do so?

I have adopted a set of basic principles, specifically that the world has an intelligible order, that sensory evidence is generally reliable and self-correcting, and that human reason is effective. I have also chosen to accept my innate sense that there is a Divine reality with which I have an I-Thou relationship, i.e. I am not truly alienated from the world. None of the above beliefs are rational, in the sense that there is no rational reason to trust either reason or instinct. However, these beliefs are self-consistent and mutually supportive in a way that rejecting all or some of those foundational beliefs cannot be. And as such, I have come to believe that the existence of God logically follows from those initial beliefs.

So the direct answer is this. No demonstration, argument or evidence would be required to change my most basic principles. They are articles of faith that I have freely chosen and from which I reason. I am free to believe or not believe for any reason or no reason at all. That said, I am however, open to be shown that a world without God does not necessarily lead to nihilism. That would change the calculus.

[Catholic_Lady]

Some fancy answers up there lol. Makes me feel silly for my practical little answer below.

I'd like to think I would go wherever the truth leads me. If God was somehow proven to not exist, I would accept it if I was being honest with myself. I have no idea what that could be, since I'm not sure you can prove the non existence of something. But theoretically speaking, if it was proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt that God does not exist, I would certainly stop believing.

[Godscreated]

Well why this question, it's been hashed and rehashed here several times and asked by another less than a week ago in a different thread, hope that future questions will be something new or at least different than what we've seen lately. Not complaining just saying I was hoping for something different than we've seen in a while.

I will start out as blunt as I always do, "no," there is nothing that can change my mind. I have a personal relationship with God and in that relationship I have come to know God is real with no doubts. So no matter what someone digs up, believes science proves or that history might indicate none of it can change what I know as fact. It would be like denying my own existence. I want to tell you all a little bit about my Christian experience with God. When I first joined the church I now belong to (many years ago) I was able to study with some of the most dedicated Christians I've ever known. After being with them for some time we were praying for a member who was extremely ill and our pastor asked God this, if you are not going to heal this person who is suffering so much take this person and relieve their pain and suffering. I was shocked because I had never heard this before and wasn't sure it was the right thing to be asking, I was thinking where is the faith we are suppose to have that God will heal. Within a couple of days this person died and of coarse the suffering stopped. What got me to thinking was this, the family was relieved that their loved one was gone and the suffering was over they knew this person would be with God for eternity and they were blessed to have been able to be a part of this persons life. This happened again just a little while later with another member with exactly the same results, the suffering was over and the family found peace. I now saw that the faith was stronger than I could imagine my pastor knew that God doesn't always heal and so he asked god for the next best thing, stop the suffering give this person and his/her family the relief and peace they need. It took a great amount of faith to pray such a prayer and it was public prayer that the family was able to know about. Not only did my pastor pray this prayer the second time but others were asking the same thing of God, to be merciful when healing is not in His will. I wanted that deep of faith and started praying for even greater growth and soon enough I was able to join in and ask the same from God and do it with no regrets. As had happened in the past the same was granted for others, God was showing His mercy to a church faithful enough to ask for it, yes a mountain was being moved. 
 Well then my own family was facing a situation of suffering, it was my own father who had expressed to us many years prior that he did not want any measures taken that would extend his life and cause undue suffering and it was for us he asked this, my dad was always thinking of others. Well one day I asked God to take dad if He was not going to heal him and allow him quality of life, it was not easy putting my selfishness aside to ask this but I knew what dad desired and I respected him enough to ask God to grant his desire for his family, soon he was gone and in peace and so was I, my merciful God had seen fit to grant us both what we desired. Did this make his death easy, no, but my family had a peace and understanding from God that was undeniable. Well this past weekend I came to terms with it again and asked God to relieve my mother's suffering, I've been watching her life deteriorate for sometime now and know she doesn't want to live like this, so instead of being selfish with my last parent I asked God to take her if He wasn't going to heal her. This morning, two days later I got the news that mom will not be with us much longer and I've seen her come to a peace and so have I. For a long time now I've lived with a burden of her suffering but this morning a peace has come over me and I know exactly where it came from, my merciful God.
 I've experienced many undeniable answered prayers from God and of many different kinds of prayer, so soon I'm going to lose mom as I asked and yet i have found a peace in all of it, so if anyone ever thinks they can cause me to lose my belief, faith and trust in God then they will have to show me something greater than the works of God I've experienced in my life. It will be an impossibility. So guys if I'm suddenly missing you will know why. I could give other and different examples as to why I can not be swayed, but I thought this very personal testimony the best example I could ever give. Now you see why I'm not complaining about the question, God's timing is as incredible as it gets.

GC

[vulcanlogician]

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Today begins the phase where participants can respond to others answers and/or offer rebuttals. This phase lasts two days.
(For participants who haven't answered yet, feel free to compress answers and/or responses into one post.

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[A Theist]

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Today begins the phase where participants can respond to others answers and or offer rebuttals. This phase lasts two days.
(For participants who haven't answered yet, feel free to compress answers and/or responses into one post.

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I won't be able to give my response to the topic until tomorrow. I'll be busy looking after my mother this afternoon. I do plan on responding to the question.

[A Theist]

There's a story about an old Cherokee telling his Grandson that there is a battle between two wolves inside of him. One is evil, anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, hate,....
The other is good, joy, love, hope, humility, kindness.... The grandson thought for a moment then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf wins?" The old man replied, "The one you feed the most."

There's also another saying I read somewhere, probably a modification of a Khrushchev quote, "We'll bury you so gently, you won't even know you're dead."

Jesus told a parable about a Sower who went out and sowed seed. Some fell by the wayside. Some fell on stony ground, "And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:", (thorns being the cares, riches, and pleasures of this life.) Luke 8:4-15

Keeping those things in mind and going to the question, "Is there anything that can be demonstrated, said, argued, proved,.........that would change your belief in God?" Most Christians, I would imagine, are pretty firm and established in their belief in God. So when Christians are confronted with anything that is argued, said, supposedly proved, isn't going to suddenly shake their belief. But that doesn't mean a Christian's faith and belief in God can't be slowly eroded away over time if they allow themselves to be distracted by worldly things and events and the personal struggles that surround them. Hence the parable of the Thorns. I remember years back that I had a dream where I was walking through a field of tall corn stalks. I came upon a clearing where there was a rusty antique car with a lot of other various collectible antiques stacked on top of it. I remember thinking to myself that those were valuable and I began gathering them up until my arms were full. As I began to walk away with my treasures I looked back and saw that I had overlooked an old Bible that was on the hood of the car. I remember thinking to myself, I bet that old Bible's valuable too. When I turned around to reach for it I didn't realize that I had become entangled in a big shrub of piercing thorns. As I tried over and over to reach for the Bible I became more entangled in the thorns as they dug into me. As my fingertips tried to grasp each page, it would tear away and I couldn't get a grip on it. Suddenly, the voice of God came to me in the dream, saying, "I'm going to clear a path." All of a sudden, there was a clearing where the tall stalks of corn were flattened and the thorns taken away. I was set free. It doesn't necessarily take a big event or a well argued point to shake a Christian's faith and belief in God. Many small things that distract in various ways can eat away at a Christian's faith and belief over time to where God at some point  seems very distant and no longer near as He once was.  Those Christians begin to neglect their prayer life to follow after a myriad of earth bound distractions, whether they be entertainments or personal struggles. They become spiritually lazy and begin to neglect Church attendance. They may also never find time anymore to open their Bibles. While they may claim to believe in God, in reality their faith is dead. They have become apostates without even realizing it. Hence, "We'll bury you so gently, you won't even know you're dead." So yes. It's possible that a Christian can lose faith and belief. This is why Jesus warned us to watch and take heed, for we don't know when the Master of the house is returning, whether it be evening, or at midnight, or in the morning: "Lest suddenly He find you sleeping. And what I say unto you, I say unto all, Watch." (Mark 13:32-37)

Which wolf wins?